Galveston,
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Really don't know how to answer because the "indwelling" makes no sense to me..Sorry.
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To proceed I think first we should acknowledge the FACT of the indwelling, even if we do not understand the indwelling.
If you can agree on the FACT of Scripture to the indwelling of God in the Christian and the indwelling of Christ in the Scripture, perhaps that is half the battle.
It is good to acknowledge the FACT of the teaching even though you do not understand the teaching. And there then a way for you to seek in prayer to God that He would unveil the understanding of the fact as taught in the Bible.
If I were you I would really pray to Jehovah "Lord Jehovah, I simply HAVE to understand what this is about - God abides in him and Jesus Christ is in you. I come fully opened in my heart to see revelation, to learn what I have not been instructed about."
But please do not lose what you have already obtained. I think you do realize that there is the FACT of the indwelling of God and of Christ to the saved, in the New Testament.
I will end this post here. I will try to help you understand the indwelling because it is more than crucial. It is more than critical to the normal Christian life.
Originally posted by galveston75If you are honest then consider how I would answer my own question to you.
Well I think I'm honest all the time. If I haven't seemed to be I apologize...
The question was if God abides in the Christian why is it necessary that Christ abides in the Christian?
Answer:
Because ... IT IS THROUGH CHRIST THAT GOD ABIDES IN THE CHRISTIAN.
Christ is the MEANS by which Jehovah God abides in man.
Listen please - "He who has the SON has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12)
It is through and by means of the indwelling of the Son of God that Jehovah abides in a human being.
Do you see what I am saying ?
Originally posted by jaywillWell yes, Jesus and his father Jehovah both love us all and that is very clear. But as I mentioned earlier, Jesus is the one that Jehovah is allowing to deal with us humans for a limited amount of time according to the scriptures. Once that time period is over, Jesus will hand back the keys, or rulership of the Kingdom back to his Father. After that the Bible does not say what will happen. But no doubt Jesus will still have a major role in earths affairs. We'll have to wait and see on that.
If you are honest then consider how I would answer my own question to you.
The question was if God abides in the Christian why is it necessary that Christ abides in the Christian?
Answer:
Because ... IT IS THROUGH CHRIST THAT GOD ABIDES IN THE CHRISTIAN.
Christ is the MEANS by which Jehovah God abides in man.
Listen please - [ ...[text shortened]... ng of the Son of God that Jehovah abides in a human being.
Do you see what I am saying ?
Originally posted by galveston75===============================
Well yes, Jesus and his father Jehovah both love us all and that is very clear. But as I mentioned earlier, Jesus is the one that Jehovah is allowing to deal with us humans for a limited amount of time according to the scriptures. Once that time period is over, Jesus will hand back the keys, or rulership of the Kingdom back to his Father. After that the ...[text shortened]... doubt Jesus will still have a major role in earths affairs. We'll have to wait and see on that.
Well yes, Jesus and his father Jehovah both love us all and that is very clear.
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The ultimate expression of the Triune God's love for man is that He gives Himself TO man to be man's eternal life. To have the Son of God is to have the eternal life.
That divine and eternal life is the imparted God, the dispensed God, the God Who infuses His life and nature into man that man may LIVE in oneness "organically" with God.
The fallen man is "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
The eternal life IS God abiding in the believer - Christ indwelling the believer. To have the Son of God is to have the eternal life.
The eternal life that the New Testament promises IS A PERSON.
If I put the question to you another way I would say:
IF Jehovah God is the Almighty and all sufficeint One, then what need is there for divine life to be in the Christian if "God abides in him"?
The answer is that God IS the life. Christ IS the life. We cannot have the eternal life apart from the Triune God abiding in us. So "He who has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
What life? The life of God that the fallen sinners are alienated from (Eph. 4:18)
If you want the eternal life you MUST receive the Son of God into your being. Have you invited the Son of God into your being ? He who has the Son has the life.
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But as I mentioned earlier, Jesus is the one that Jehovah is allowing to deal with us humans for a limited amount of time according to the scriptures.
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Jesus taught saying that the Spirit of reality would be with the disciples not temporarily BUT FOREVER.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, [Even] the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know [Him]; [but] you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:16-18)
The Spirit of reality will be with the disciples FOREVER, for eternity. That is long after the end of the millennial kingdom the Spirit of reality, the another Comforter will still eternally be with the disciples.
Who is this Spirit of reality? He is Jesus in His form in which He can be dispensed into man. "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
The coming of this Spirit of reality is the coming of divine life. The coming of this Spirit is the coming of Christ Himself in His pneumatic form.
In verse 17 He said "He ... shall be in you". In the very next passage Christ says "I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."
The Spirit's coming is Christ's coming. The Spirit remains in them forever, past the end of the millennium, for eternity. Christ comes to them not leaving them orphans but being in them for eternity.
He is eternal life. He is not 1,000 year life.
Christ transfigured Himself into a life giving Spirit to be that Another Comforter who was WITH them in His physical form, but will soon after His death and resurrection, be IN them. "I am coming to you."
He is coming to His believers after He redeems them with His death, to be with them for eternity.
The end of the millennium does not effect this eternal indwelling of the Son of God. His ruling of the sons of God is an INWARD ruling. It is His ruling from within.
Granted, to some nations who do not have the indwelling, God is the OUTWARD ruler. But that is NOT the Christian. To the Christian He is the one ruling FROM WITHIN. And that forever and not just for 1,000 years.
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Once that time period is over, Jesus will hand back the keys, or rulership of the Kingdom back to his Father. After that the Bible does not say what will happen. But no doubt Jesus will still have a major role in earths affairs. We'll have to wait and see on that.
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Whatever Jesus does at the end of the millennial kingdom has no effect on His indwelling the believers "forever" -
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you FOREVER, even the Spirit of reality"
"Now the Lord is that Spirit" ( 2 Cor. 3:17)
You have not focused nearly enough attention to the INDWELLING of the Triune God. You have focused all your attention on the OUTWARD reigning of a OUTWARD King. You should embrace the former as well as the latter.
Galveston,
Jesus said that the world could not receive or behold the Spirit of reality.
If you say that you cannot comprehend what the indwelling of God is or what the indwelling of Christ is, are you not concerned then that perhaps you are one of the world ?
There is the called out EKKLESIA and there is the world. How do you know that you are not still a part of the world if you CANNOT understand what the indwelling of God is ?
You need to step out of the kosmos, out of the world and allow Jesus Christ to come to you and indwell you.
That is WHY He died on the cross and shed His blood for your redemption. It was not simply to reign OVER you as an outward King. It was to impart His Spirit into you as eternal life.
If you have not received this Christ you are still in the world that cannot perceive the Comforter and cannot behold the Spirit of reality that Jesus promised to send.
His shed blood indeed manifests His great love. But even more so that having redeemed man He would ENTER into man to be man's spiritual life, man's eternal life.
Originally posted by jaywillWell Jay in my heart I know I have a very good understanding on what Jesus means to us all and what this sacrifice means.
Galveston,
Jesus said that the world could not receive or behold the Spirit of reality.
If you say that you cannot comprehend what the indwelling of God is or what the indwelling of Christ is, are you not concerned then that perhaps you are one of the world ?
There is the called out EKKLESIA and there is the world. How do you know that you a ...[text shortened]... at having redeemed man He would ENTER into man to be man's spiritual life, man's eternal life.
But I also know what the keys are to please Jehovah God and the place that his son represents and holds.
And I also have a very clear understanding on what the spirit is and how Jehovah uses it.
So if I don't understand something that you says need to be done, don't take offence, but I'll continue doing what the Bible tells me to do...
And I know I'm not out in the Kosmos and the Bible is very clear that Jesus died as a ransom sacrifice for our sins so we can have the chance to gain back what Adam lost for us. Have you forgotten that?
Originally posted by galveston75you mean the spirit of (the Christ, God and/or the Holy spirit) doesn't dwell in your heart and mingle with your spirit, the perfect mingling of man and God-man, so that you experience the sublime effect of the wondrous and mystical triune God within the Godhead? shame on you, for now you are doomed to spend eternal torment in the fiery depths of hell listening to Satan read large epic monologues of Jaywills posts, while he himself sits on an ivory divan, in heaven and condescends to dip his finger in some water and quench our thirst while we roast like shrimps at a barbecue.
Well Jay in my heart I know I have a very good understanding on what Jesus means to us all and what this sacrifice means.
But I also know what the keys are to please Jehovah God and the place that his son represents and holds.
And I also have a very clear understanding on what the spirit is and how Jehovah uses it.
So if I don't understand somethin sins so we can have the chance to gain back what Adam lost for us. Have you forgotten that?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIs that what I'm missing out on??? Oh my.. Sounds kinda feaky to me.
you mean the spirit of (the Christ, God and/or the Holy spirit) doesn't dwell in your heart and mingle with your spirit, the perfect mingling of man and God-man, so that you experience the sublime effect of the wondrous and mystical triune God within the Godhead?
But I know Jay means good but it seems that some of the important truths of the Bible he seems to blow off and according to him all you need to be in God's good grace is to just let Jesus into your heart or soul or something like that, and the rest really isn't important. Just slide on by doing this and the rest will take care of itself.
Originally posted by galveston75==============================
Well Jay in my heart I know I have a very good understanding on what Jesus means to us all and what this sacrifice means.
But I also know what the keys are to please Jehovah God and the place that his son represents and holds.
And I also have a very clear understanding on what the spirit is and how Jehovah uses it.
So if I don't understand somethin sins so we can have the chance to gain back what Adam lost for us. Have you forgotten that?
And I know I'm not out in the Kosmos and the Bible is very clear that Jesus died as a ransom sacrifice for our sins so we can have the chance to gain back what Adam lost for us. Have you forgotten that?
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In my understanding of the Bible what Christ gains for His redeemed people exceeds what Adam lost.
There is something which Adam never had which Christ obtains for man through His redemption.
God can have an earth full of people who are restored to the state that Adam was in before his disobedience, yet this still does not match God's eternal purpose.
Adam was very good. And it certainly will be good that nations can be restored to the state of Adam before his losses. But God's eternal purpose exceeds what Adam lost and secures something that Adam never had.
Adam never partook of the tree of life. Adam never had the indwelling of God. Adam did not have the mingling of God with himself. Adam never had the oneness in life and in nature with God that Christ IS and obtains for the church.
Adam never partook of the divine life of God which was signified in the tree of life. Therefore when you speak of regaining what Adam lost you are not really talking about God being dispensed into Adam to mingle with Adam.
Now what Adam lost is discribed as the kingdom prepared for man "from the foundation of the world." But what the sons of God with the indwelling of God have is discribed as that plan made "before the foundation of the world".
Here is what I mean.
1.) The paradise kingdom that Adam had - "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:34)
2.) The eternal plan of God to mingle with man in an "organic" unity - "Even as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (Eph. 1:4,5)
One is a plan for a paradise kingdom as was prepared for Adam. But the other is deeper and more crucial. It is the plan for God to have sons who share His divine life and nature through Jesus Christ.
I will stop here and discuss more with you latter.
Originally posted by galveston75the "organic" unity, LOL, that's where you been going wrong, you been spraying your spirituality with pesticides when you should have been going organic!
Is that what I'm missing out on??? Oh my.. Sounds kinda feaky to me.
But I know Jay means good but it seems that some of the important truths of the Bible he seems to blow off and according to him all you need to be in God's good grace is to just let Jesus into your heart or soul or something like that, and the rest really isn't important. Just slide on by doing this and the rest will take care of itself.
Three facts about Adam.
1.) Adam was neutral. Adam was in a neutral position between God and Satan. He had to choose by which souce he would live. The rest is history.
But Adam was in a NEUTRAL position.
2.) Adam was neutral BUT he was created "very good". There was nothing sinful about him (until he disobeyed). The neutral man created by God was not created bad. He was "very good" and with a free will.
3.) Adam did NOT have the indwelling of God and fell BEFORE he could have it.
Adam had a kind of everlasting life. But Adam did not have the divine life signified by the fruit of the tree of life. He was neutral and chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This brought him under the authority of Satan, God's enemy. Moreover it infested him with Satan.
Adam never partook of the tree of life which would have resulted in Adam being mingled with God, indwelt with by God, in union with God, and having God's life and nature dispensed into him.
Before Adam could partake of the life of God he was driven from the garden as a polluted and infested sinner poisoned with the Satanic nature.
God's eternal purpose is more than to have a GOOD man. God's plan in eternity is to have a GOD-man.
You must see the difference between a GOOD man and a GOD-man.
A GOD-man has God indwelling him so that divinity and humanity aremingled together.
Christ is the God-man who came to produce God-men. These will reign forever and ever. They do not reign over each other. They will reign over the GOOD men.
The sheep in Matthew 25 who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world are the GOOD men restored to the state of the good created Adam before his fall.
But the sons of God are the men and women mingled with God through the indwelling of God as divine and eternal life.
It may meet MAN's purpose to have an everlasting good life. But to meet God's eternal purpose man must be mingled with God to be a GOD-MAN.
Do you understand me galveston ?
Galveston,
I appreciate that you do not mock that which you do not fully understand.
I use the word "organic" in a borrowed way. The emphasis of this analogy is to indicate a union of life.
When a plant is grafted into another plant, they have a unity which we might discribe as "organic".
This is not a perfect word to discribe something very profound. It may be useful.
The forgiven sinner is "grafted" into another life. And that life is imparted into him. That is why it is discribed as a SECOND birth.
In addition to the natural life, the born again Christian receives the life of God. God is able to dispense Himself into man.
The meaning of the word "Father is this impartation of God Himself into man for an "organic" unity of the created with the uncreated, the divine with the human.
God abiding in the believer, Christ living in the believer, the Spirit being in the believer is a matter of an "organic" unity of two lives.
Anyway. Thinkyou for not mocking what is a challenge to explain in our limited human language.
Originally posted by jaywillSo if one has Jesus grafted into him, what does this do in say, protecting this human from physical harm or even death?
Galveston,
I appreciate that you do not mock that which you do not fully understand.
I use the word "organic" in a borrowed way. The emphasis of this analogy is to indicate a union of life.
When a plant is grafted into another plant, they have a unity which we might discribe as "organic".
This is not a perfect word to discribe somethi ...[text shortened]... hinkyou for not mocking what is a challenge to explain in our limited human language.
Originally posted by galveston75================================
So if one has Jesus grafted into him, what does this do in say, protecting this human from physical harm or even death?
So if one has Jesus grafted into him, what does this do in say, protecting this human from physical harm or even death?
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First, I would make a correction or clarification. The illustration about grafting come from Romans 9:17-22. That is a discussion about the Gentiles being grafted into Christ.
So use grafting for man's being put into Christ. This is more biblical than the other way around.
also, John chapter 15 speaks of the believers as the branches abiding in the true vine. That is a more biblical usage of the branch example.
Now as to your question:
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what does this do in say, protecting this human from physical harm or even death?
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Why not examine the lives of the apostles and the disciples in the New Testament to ascertain that ?
Whatever happened to the apostles James, Peter, John, Paul, Silas and the brothers Stephen, Titus, etc. is also what can happen to those who receive Christ into them.
What happens in this church age is under the sovereign arrangement of God. What He allows to happen is what will happen.
What happened to the martyrs of Christ under Roman persecution is also what can happen to those who receive Christ. But Christ also spoke of the resurrection and the glorification of the body.
Eventually, what happens to those indwelt by God is that His life permeates their soul and bursts out into their body. They are "swallowed up" in the divine life of God.
" For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)
He is working on the inside to transform the soul. He is eventually working on the outside to transfigure the body.
In the verse that I just quoted you the next verse is critical, concerning the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is because the indwelling Holy Spirit is the pledge that this swallowing up will take place. Here is what immediately follows verse 5,
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (4:5)
The Holy Spirit is therefore not only the means by which the Christian knows that God abides in him (1 John 4:13). He is also the pledge to assure the Christian that the divine life will swallow up his physical body.
The Holy Spirit is not only the "Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2) and the life giving Spirit Who is Christ indwelling the Christian (1 Cor. 15:45)[/b] The Holy Spirit is also the SEAL eternally stamped upon the believer assure him that he is now foretasting something which he will have a fuller taste of in the future:
" ... you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ...." (Eph. 1:13,14)
The indwelling Spirit is the SEAL and the PLEDGE.
"He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Cor. 1:22)
So the one who trusts Christ redemption accomplished upon the cross should open up to receive the Spirit of Christ. The redemption is only applicable when one receives the Spirit of Christ.
Actually it is Christ Himself Who is the salvation, the wisdom from God, the sanctification, and the redemption:
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption, That as it is written, He who boasts let him boast in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1:20,31)
I boast that it is Jesus Christ Himself Who has come into me and become wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
He IS the redemption. The redemption is applied to you personally WHEN the Spirit of Jesus Christ enters into you causing you to be born again.
In being born again, the human spirit is God's life because of righteousness. That righteousness is in receiving Jesus Christ the Righteous One into your being.
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10)
When Christ is invited into your heart, the human spirit is made life because of righteousness. In other words the justification of Christ's salvation comes into you and is personally applied to you.
Then there is an inner bearing of witness. You know that God has come to live in you because the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God:
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God. And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God; on the other, joint heirs with Christ ... " (Romans 8:16)
Did you ask the Spirit of Jesus Christ to come into your heart ? Did you ask Jesus to come into your being ?
You are entitled to because His blood was shed for your redemption. You can stand upon the redemptive work of His shed blood and invite Christ the life giving Spirit to come into your being.