Two Options

Originally posted by FMF
Well, I'd say ~ in terms of him propagating his religious ideology ~ he's struggling. There is a reason why he has never answered my straight forward question.

the only reason?

(have i misunderstood?)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
the only reason?

(have i misunderstood?)

He may have some emotional reasons for not wanting to discuss it properly, but that is of no particular concern to me, other than how it results in his peculiar behaviour. What I am referring to is the fact that his periodic, spam-like, subjective 'It's Your Choice' declarations are founded on a notion that people can somehow choose to believe something they do not believe. If he concedes that people can't do this, it undermines his entire 'ministry'. That is why he has never answered my straight forward question.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
This is muddled thinking. If someone rejects the existence of the gift giver, they are committed to rejecting the existence of the gift as well.

Two Options

1) Anxiety, Birth, Copulation and Death without US$ 20,000,000,000 or 2) Anxiety, Birth, Copulation and Death with US$ 20,000,000,000 which an online friend of mine called Fred is going to send you in return for - nothing else except - you believing that he is going to send you that US$ 20,000,000,000.

“For Fred so loved the countenance and trustworthiness depicted in the yahoo profiles of his recipients, and having lost his Nigerian Education Minister wife to a suspicious airplane crash; and having many billions of US Dollars in secret bank accounts in need of spiriting out of his country in a discreet fashion; decreed that he who believes that they will receive US$ 20,000,000,000 shall receive the US$ 20,000,000,000; and he who does not believe they will receive this US$ 20,000,000,000 quite simply shall not" (as recounted by FMF, RHP Thread 165973, page 2, 10.51 am WIB 17 Oct 2015)

Fred respects your volition. The choice is yours.

Originally posted by FMF
He may have some emotional reasons for not wanting to discuss it properly, but that is of no particular concern to me, other than how it results in his peculiar behaviour. What I am referring to is the fact that his periodic, spam-like, subjective 'It's Your Choice' declarations are founded on a notion that people can somehow choose to believe something they do ...[text shortened]... ndermines his entire 'ministry'. That is why he has never answered my straight forward question.

While you yourself are acting as if you have a horse in this race. Since you actually don't, then your motivation for trolling GB in this manner is just because you can get away with it.

(And no, this is not your cue to ask me the same question that you pepper GB with at every opportunity. )

Originally posted by Suzianne
While you yourself are acting as if you have a horse in this race. Since you actually don't, then your motivation for trolling GB in this manner is just because you can get away with it.

Grampy Bobby's "Two Options" in his OP are not aimed at Christians ~ the "choice" is aimed at non-Christians. I am a non-Christian. And so my question is entirely pertinent. Furthermore, it remains unanswered.

Originally posted by Suzianne
While you yourself are acting as if you have a horse in this race. Since you actually don't, then your motivation for trolling GB in this manner is just because you can get away with it.

(And no, this is not your cue to ask me the same question that you pepper GB with at every opportunity. )

It's a reasonable enough question. Someone who already believes in supernatural entities may decide to turn to Christ, but that is less of a step ideologically than a conscious atheist converting. A skeptically minded empiricist is simply not going to choose to start believing in God, there is too little uncontroversial evidence and it is too much of a paradigm shift. They might due to some non-conscious process, but it will not be a choice in the conscious sense. Given that GB started the thread with an appeal to volition, as he calls it, it strikes me as reasonable to question his implied claim that such a choice is possible for most people. I haven't seen an answer to that one.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Choice is yours."

If somebody doesn't believe in Jesus Christ, or specifically the gospel as laid out in the NT, do you think telling them "the choice is yours" will somehow create in them the ability to choose to believe? Or do you think they will find the comment cold and uncaring?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by FMF
"How is it a "choice" if one of the supposed options is not perceived as being credible or, in fact, not perceived as existing at all?"
__________________________

Did you make a "choice" to reply to this thread's original post? Were there other "options" available to you? Did you, in fact, reply because you were moti ...[text shortened]... ite public forums sometime in November, 2015, if able to do so. Stay safe. Be well. Regards, Bob

Ah, the "sabbatical" tactic.

Originally posted by Suzianne
While you yourself are acting as if you have a horse in this race. Since you actually don't, then your motivation for trolling GB in this manner is just because you can get away with it.

(And no, this is not your cue to ask me the same question that you pepper GB with at every opportunity. )

If you read the thread without your partisan specs on, I think you will see that GB is the troll in this case. He has started threads with this topic countless times and gets the same responses every time. Look at his reply to twhitehead. GB trolls for attention.

Originally posted by Suzianne
While you yourself are acting as if you have a horse in this race. Since you actually don't, then your motivation for trolling GB in this manner is just because you can get away with it.

In what way is he acting as if he has a 'horse in this race? In what way is he 'trolling'? Is all debate just trolling? Are you trolling? Certainly you fit the definition better than anyone else here ie you post solely to to try and get a response and not in an attempt to actually communicate anything meaningful.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Choice is yours."

Why do you keep on posting your 'two options' in this forum knowing full well what the responses will be? Do you think you will win new converts by doing so? I think it highly unlikely. Do you realize that by doing so you are damaging your own reputation?

Originally posted by DeepThought
It's a reasonable enough question. Someone who already believes in supernatural entities may decide to turn to Christ, but that is less of a step ideologically than a conscious atheist converting. A skeptically minded empiricist is simply not going to choose to start believing in God, there is too little uncontroversial evidence and it is too much of a pa ...[text shortened]... implied claim that such a choice is possible for most people. I haven't seen an answer to that one.

Originally posted by DeepThought
"It's a reasonable enough question. Someone who already believes in supernatural entities may decide to turn to Christ, but that is less of a step ideologically than a conscious atheist converting. A skeptically minded empiricist is simply not going to choose to start believing in God, there is too little uncontroversial evidence and it is too much of a paradigm shift. They might due to some non-conscious process, but it will not be a choice in the conscious sense. Given that GB started the thread with an appeal to volition, as he calls it, it strikes me as reasonable to question his implied claim that such a choice is possible for most people. I haven't seen an answer to that one."

DT, someone offers a gift of inestimable value at no cost to you and also to me. Is it then subsequently possible for you and I to accept this gift? Alternatively, is it then also subsequently possible for you and I to reject this gift? An offer with only two possible replies, "Yes" or "No", is simple enough for a child to understand; so simple that it may be perceived as an insult to an emotionally blinded individual. Trust this example provides an answer to your question.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why do you keep on posting your 'two options' in this forum knowing full well what the responses will be? Do you think you will win new converts by doing so? I think it highly unlikely. Do you realize that by doing so you are damaging your own reputation?

Because I care about the eternal destiny of your soul.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
DT, someone offers a gift of inestimable value at no cost to you and also to me. Is it then subsequently possible for you and I to accept this gift?.

This gift cannot be accepted by a person who has no convincing reason to think the gift exists.

Originally posted by FMF
This gift cannot be accepted by a person who has no convincing reason to think the gift exists.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." (John 3:16-17) "Footnotes: a.John 3:16 Or unique, only one of His kind." God is rational, reasonable and respects human volition. Choice is yours.