Two Options

Originally posted by Suzianne
"Over the years"??

This forum is only a few days over a month old.

How so? I have been contributing to this forum for at least five years.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Oh, the irony.

If you think I use straw men, why not provide some examples?

I'm not entirely sure you know what a straw man argument is.

Originally posted by FMF
Well you only have reports about the millions of Chinese Christians you haven't met to go on too. Do you have to meet Christians personally and weight the legitimacy of their beliefs before acknowledging their Christianity?

Well you only have reports about the millions of Chinese Christians you haven't met to go on too.
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1.) I did not mention "millions of Chinese Christians", at least yet. If I am wrong please quote me where I wrote the phrase in this discussion "millions of Chinese Christians".

2.) Though I do not know "millions" I know quite a few brothers and sisters in Christ from China's mainland or who were in Taiwan.

3.) I know personally a professor of Chines history who taught at Boston College whose reports I have no reason to doubt IF I DID mention something about "millions of Chinese Christians". Plus I know of people who have traveled to the Mainland of China and met with the Christians driven underground there.

I may be mistaken, but it seems that your ire is up just because I said I only had your report of your friend. This doesn't mean I positively know she is not my sister in Christ. I just cautiously say I just have your say-so.


Do you have to meet Christians personally and weight the legitimacy of their beliefs before acknowledging their Christianity?
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Do you have to paint me as intolerant in order to deal with an objection to Christians easier to deal with than some other issue ?

Are you eager to place a narrow sectarian attitude in my mouth because it is easier to deal with than some other thing I said ? IE. that the Virgin Mary, I doubt, appeared to her for real.

You just finished complaining about strawman arguments. It seems like you're only sensitive to their erection when its towards yourself.

No, I do not have to personally meet every brother or sister in Christ. But when someone who boasts about the assurance that he was a Christian at one time, says he knows a Christian, I might take it with a grain of salt.

Maybe his say so is accurate. Maybe it is not. You can exercise the same caution about me. So why complain about it ?

Following this I really would like to see this "millions of Chinese Christians" phrase I used in this discussion.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Well you only have reports about the millions of Chinese Christians you haven't met to go on too.
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1.) I did not mention "millions of Chinese Christians, at least yet. If I am wrong please quote me where I wrote the phrase in this discussion "millions of Chinese Christ ...[text shortened]... really would like to see this "millions of Chinese Christians" phrase I used in this discussion.[/b]

My friend Yuli converted to Christianity, despite the threats of being ostracised, and she has been embraced by plenty of new Christian friends with whom she shares her faith, and in this way she has found happiness.... but you - to some degree - doubt the legitimacy of her faith... have I understood you correctly? Something about "demons"?

Originally posted by sonship
Are you eager to place a narrow sectarian atttiude in my mouth because it is easier to deal with than some other thing I said ? IE. that the Virgin Mary, I doubt, appeared to her for real.

Does it taint her purported Christian faith to your way of thinking?

Originally posted by FMF

[b]My friend Yuli converted to Christianity, despite the threats of being ostracised, and she has been embraced by plenty of new Christian friends with whom she shares her faith, and in this way she has found happiness.... but you - to some degree - doubt the legitimacy of her faith... have I understood you correctly? Something about "demons"?
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Get these two things separated in your eager mind.

A person being a believer in Jesus Christ is one matter.
A person either during believing in Christ OR previous to believing having an experience of demons is distinct.

You are salivating like one of Pavlov's dogs to assume that I would not receive a brother or sister in Christ because they had such an experience in some time of their life.

Don't be so eager to slap the "sectarian" label on me just because I said she may have had an experience with demons.

You loath for people to assume things about you.
Practice a little what you lecture on.

Originally posted by sonship
You are salivating like one of Pavlov's dogs to assume that I would not receive a brother or sister in Christ because they had such an experience in some time of their life.

How so, sonship? A personal anecdote and a couple of plain, concise questions that engaged head on what you said, and what? I'm "salivating"? I'm a "Pavlov's dog"? What's the matter with you?

Originally posted by sonship
Don't be so eager to slap the "sectarian" label on me just because I said she may have had an experience with demons.

Do you believe the "Virgin Mary" has ever appeared in a vision to anyone?

Originally posted by FMF
Does it taint her purported Christian faith to your way of thinking?

Does it taint her purported Christian faith to your way of thinking?
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When I meet a Christian I know the redeeming blood of Christ deals with any "taints" .

In receiving others as members of the household of faith I live by Paul's word to receive others as Christ has received us.

"Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God." (Romans 15:7)

You say she's a Chrtistian. Maybe you are right. Maybe you are not. You voice that it is all poppycock. So if you think it is all poppycock how can I be assured you know Christ has received her ?

Anyway, if she is my sister, I do not reject her because of the "seeing Mary" incident. If I was speaking with her, I probably wouldn't even bring it up for discussion, unless she wanted to talk about it.

Let me guess. Its just a guess. What you really want to do is to subsume all that I have said and all the visions of the Virgin Mary under one grand category of poppycock. And no one has any right to suspicion anyone of a invalid vision of profession no matter how it agrees or not with the Scripture.

Is that where you want to go?

IE. "Her seeing Mary is no less or more wacky then you saying Jesus lives in you. You are both equally deceived. So you are sectarian and intolerant."

is that the gist of this line of examination?

Originally posted by sonship
You say she's a Chrtistian. Maybe you are right. Maybe you are not. You voice that it is all poppycock. So if you think it is all poppycock how can I be assured you know Christ has received her ?

I used to be a Christian. So when someone I know embraces, converts to, and starts living a Christian life with sincerity and passion, I can tell. A large proportion of my relatives and friends are Christians.

On a side note, when did I use the word "poppycock"? Do you have a link?

Originally posted by sonship
Let me guess. Its just a guess. What you really want to do is to subsume all that I have said and all the visions of the Virgin Mary under one grand category of poppycock. And no one has any right to suspicion anyone of a invalid vision of profession no matter how it agrees or not with the Scripture.

You feel I am trying to deny your "rights" in this conversation? How so?

Originally posted by sonship
Let me guess. Its just a guess. What you really want to do is to subsume all that I have said and all the visions of the Virgin Mary under one grand category of poppycock.

Again, this word "poppycock". On which thread do you reckon I used it? I can't recall using it but if you can show me I did I can reflect on it and apologize. Do you know which thread it was on?

Originally posted by FMF
Do you believe the "Virgin Mary" has ever appeared in a vision to anyone?

I believe a vision of Mary could seem to appeared.
I believe that a vision of UFOs has also appeared.

I don't think God draws man's attention AWAY from His Son in order to exalt Mary. It should line up with the Bible.

What about a vision of Jesus ?

I mentioned about that young man under the influence of LSD uttered his last words before he stepped off of a ledge - "I see the Lord". He thought he saw Jesus. He fell to his death walking out into nowhere thinking the hallucination was Jesus.

It doesn't pass the smell test.
Would Jesus lure a young man to do something so foolish ?
Does Jesus love death so that He cannot wait for a young man to die in such a way ?

I cannot say for 100% certainty that he did not see Jesus.
I am pretty sure he did not.
I am more sure that some really had God reveal to them Mary.
But I believe people see things.

People see things on Mars.
A little girl, a statue of Buddha, an alien spacecraft, canals, vegetation. They saw or think they saw things.

Paul warned of standing on things claimed to have been seen but influenced by the pride of the fallen flesh.

" Let no one defraud you [purposely or not deliberately] .. dwelling on things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his mind set on the flesh, ..." (Col. 2:18)

He didn't say there are NO visions.
He warned about the excess of standing on visions which are vainly puffed up by a nonspiritual and fleshly mind.

The rest of the passage is helpful -

"Let no one defraud you ... dwelling on things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his mind set on the flesh,

And not holding the Head ..."

The Head of the Body of Christ is Christ. He is saying to beware of DISTRACTIONS from Christ. Such distractions may be subtly related to the word of God, ie. angels, Mary for example.

It is possible to be cautious and yet not go overboard in sectarian dogmatism. There is a proper balance of listening patiently to someone's experience and considering how it relates to Scripture.

Originally posted by sonship
I believe a vision of Mary could seem to appeared.
I believe that a vision of UFOs has also appeared.

I don't think God draws man's attention AWAY from His Son in order to exalt Mary. It should line up with the Bible.

What about a vision of Jesus ?

I told you that a young man under the influence of LSD utter his last words before he stepped off ...[text shortened]... ance of listening patiently to someone's experience and considering how it relates to Scripture.

So, your answer to the question "Do you believe the 'Virgin Mary' has ever appeared in a vision to anyone?" is "no", is that right?

Originally posted by FMF
So, your answer to the question "Do you believe the 'Virgin Mary' has ever appeared in a vision to anyone?" is "no", is that right?

I doubt it.

Is this the most poignant argument you are formulating with me today ?

So Mary has probably not appeared to anyone. So what ?