Unconditional love

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
If humans are capable of unconditional love (which I believe they are, irrespective of theistic outlook) then it 'has' to be the case that humans are capable of altruism.

Take the father who runs into a burning building to save his child. This act is both a demonstration of unconditional love and altruism.

Of course this is true, absolutely.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Yes I agree with all of those. However....

God is supreme, in control and God is love. ++ God creates hell and knows that he has set things up in such a way that billions of those he loves will go there.

It doesn’t make sense.

If it is acceptable to you, lets just find a lot of things we agree on first, we know we disagree
on some points. I'd like a good foundation before we start talking about where we part ways.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
If God is never changing which I believe we both also agree with, then at no point
can God be anything other than what God is.
So God is love, yes.
God is good, yes.
God is just, yes
God is who He is, and will act in ways that agree with all of His traits!
He will never act in a way that not love, good, just, so every attribute is always satisfied
at all times, since He never changes.

Can we agree on these points?

I don't agree on all of those points. A thing can change and still be what it is at every point. You changed from a child to a man, and you're still you.

The angry, jealous God of the OT undergoes a radical re-interpretation in the NT, becoming a God of love. Whether it is God who changed, or only man's interpretation of God's message for man, doesn't affect the point above, that a thing can change and be what it is at every point. The point being that God might change and still be God and nothing other than what God is (through change).

Originally posted by @moonbus

The angry, jealous God of the OT undergoes a radical re-interpretation in the NT, becoming a God of love. Whether it is God who changed, or only man's interpretation of God's message for man, doesn't affect the point above, that a thing can change and be what it is at every point. The point being that God might change and still be God and nothing other than what God is (through change).

The change in God (between the Old and New Testaments) is as striking as the change in Michael Corleone in the Godfather movies.

Originally posted by @moonbus
I don't agree on all of those points. A thing can change and still be what it is at every point. You changed from a child to a man, and you're still you.

The angry, jealous God of the OT undergoes a radical re-interpretation in the NT, becoming a God of love. Whether it is God who changed, or only man's interpretation of God's message for man, doesn't af ...[text shortened]... at God might change and still be God and nothing other than what God is (through change).

I don't believe God changes, and if you think that the God of the OT is different, or has
some how changes that was actually the point I wanted to come to. God is not evolving
into something else, He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That makes Him
a constant in the universe. So can the God of the OT be the same God in the NT, I say
yes, it is because God is the same do we see the actions God has taken to restore
our lives to Him. The NT was foretold about in the OT, as quick as man fell God's grace
towards mankind was at work, if it wasn't man would have ended on the day He sinned.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
The change in God (between the Old and New Testaments) is as striking as the change in Michael Corleone in the Godfather movies.

How is a God who is Holy, Just, Good, and Righteous supposed to react when confronting
evil and wickedness, be indifferent?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I don't believe God changes, and if you think that the God of the OT is different, or has
some how changes that was actually the point I wanted to come to. God is not evolving
into something else, He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That makes Him
a constant in the universe. So can the God of the OT be the same God in the NT, I say
yes, it i ...[text shortened]... od's grace
towards mankind was at work, if it wasn't man would have ended on the day He sinned.

Nonsense. Between the old and new testaments .. God can change. God has changed. God has done things differently. God has new rules .

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I don't believe God changes, and if you think that the God of the OT is different, or has
some how changes that was actually the point I wanted to come to. God is not evolving
into something else, He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That makes Him
a constant in the universe. So can the God of the OT be the same God in the NT, I say
yes, it i ...[text shortened]... od's grace
towards mankind was at work, if it wasn't man would have ended on the day He sinned.

God can't change? That's you talking.


The NT was foretold about in the OT. That is the Christian take on the OT, not the Jewish take. The Jews should know; after all, it's their convenent.

Originally posted by @moonbus
God can't change? That's you talking.


[b]The NT was foretold about in the OT. That is the Christian take on the OT, not the Jewish take. The Jews should know; after all, it's their convenent.[/b]

So in the NT Jesus says everyone is going to heaven?

Originally posted by @rajk999
Nonsense. Between the old and new testaments .. God can change. God has changed. God has done things differently. God has new rules .

Rules can change that doesn’t mean God has changed, the covenants between God and man can change that doesn’t mean God has changed, our standing before God can change that doesn’t mean God has changed.

God is the same and doesn’t change, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever!

If your god changes why would you trust it, since it is fickle and unreliable? What it may like today it could hate tomorrow!

Originally posted by @divegeester
Relationships are managed through conditions certainly, but isn’t your love for your spouse fundamentally unconditional. I will still love my wife even if she stops loving me. Admittedly my human love may fail after a while of abandonment, but also maybe not.

“[b]You cannot force another to love you back even though you may love them”

This is ...[text shortened]... wish they could be that person again. I would still have love for what they were supposed to be.[/b]

I understand you have an issue with the whole "burn for eternity" thingy, but what to do?

What do you do with those who reject you?

If you were God, what would you do?

Originally posted by @divegeester
You parents , do you love your children unconditionally?

Suzianne used this phrase with reference to God’s love in a thread tonight and it really struck a chord with me so I want to ask contributors what they think God’s “unconditional love” is and what is means in terms of forgiveness and punishment, and yes especially eternal suffering - being bur ...[text shortened]... t that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

I wonder how it's possible to love a child molester or psychopathic torturer/serial killer. It seems unnatural to love any such person.

Originally posted by @moonbus
God can't change? That's you talking.


[b]The NT was foretold about in the OT. That is the Christian take on the OT, not the Jewish take. The Jews should know; after all, it's their convenent.[/b]

Look through both OT and NT to support God evolves, you will not find scriptural support for such a thing.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I don't believe God changes, and if you think that the God of the OT is different, or has
some how changes that was actually the point I wanted to come to. God is not evolving
into something else, He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That makes Him
a constant in the universe. So can the God of the OT be the same God in the NT, I say
yes, it i ...[text shortened]... od's grace
towards mankind was at work, if it wasn't man would have ended on the day He sinned.

If God can change His mind, how can He be said to be unchanging?


'When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.' (Jonah 3:10)


'The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.' (Amos 7:3)

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Rules can change that doesn’t mean God has changed, the covenants between God and man can change that doesn’t mean God has changed, our standing before God can change that doesn’t mean God has changed.

God is the same and doesn’t change, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever!

If your god changes why would you trust it, since it is fickle and unreliable? What it may like today it could hate tomorrow!

New Covenant = Change.

You are arguing nonsense