Using your predestination

Originally posted by divegeester
As for predestination, I believe God is sovereign, responsible and accountable and that when Christ died for all, that's exactly what happened. Atonement for all mankind.

Why stop at the atonement ?

He is able to save us to the UTTERMOST ... THE UTTERMOST ... that is all the way to completely without blemish and glorified.

Why stop at atonement when it is only the beginning ?

Originally posted by divegeester
Oh really. Then how do you account for this:

Romans 9:22
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--[b]prepared for destruction?"[/b]

It means what it says. "They", the objects of his wrath, God bore their rebellion patiently, but they will be destroyed.

It makes no sense to use that verse to say God will save those that are "prepared for destruction" against their will. If a man chooses to reject Christ God won't force them to be saved against their will. That idea cannot be supported by scripture.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Good positive stuff sonship. To bad divegeester still doesn't get it. He seems to think "predestination" means that some are chosen to be saved and others lost.
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Thanks for the encouragement.
My burden is more along the line of, say, the exa ...[text shortened]... od, to do as it is this day, to preserve alive a numerous people." (Gen. 50:18-20) [/b] [/quote][/b]

"...that God's foreknowledge is tied in to this matter of predestination."

It is difficult to explain. Then there is also the matter of man's free will tied into they equation as well.

I see nothing forbidding anyone to thank God for predestinating them to being saved.

Let's say you are an unbeliever and are not sure it you can even make it to believe in Christ. Here is a good prayer to pray. Again "No one can say Lord Jesus except in the Holy Spirit"

"Lord Jesus, I thank You for marking me out to be saved and presented before You are You desire - "holy and without blemish". I receive Lord Jesus to cleansing of my sins clean away in Your redeeming blood. "

Don't complain as some would -

"But you have to have faith to believe there. And you have to believe to have faith there. It is circular. It is a fallacy."

It is true that you have to have some faith in order to believe. I agree.
It is true that you have to believe some in order to have faith.

But you have a little. And Jesus said all you need to remove a mountain is faith as a little mustard seed. You can step out and call "Lord Jesus. Lord ... Lord Jesus"

Win the arugment but get saved too. That is what I say. Go ahead and win the argument on circular reasoning. The bible agrees with you. You have to have a little belief in order to have faith. Right here:

" ... for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (See Hebrews 11:6)

Win the argument but come forward to God. That is what I say.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"...that God's foreknowledge is tied in to this matter of predestination."

It is difficult to explain. Then there is also the matter of man's free will tied into they equation as well.[/b]

It is difficult to explain. Then there is also the matter of man's free will tied into they equation as well.
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Yes, it is difficult to comprehend and explain for me. Maybe it is impossible to do so exhaustively.

But it is hard to explain this -

To measure Space we need Time and Motion.
But to measure Time we need Space and Motion.
But to measure Motion we need Time and Space.

Its not FAIR !!
But shall we say these matters do not exist ?


Anyway, though difficult to understand or explain Paul had such confidence that God can only but complete His purpose.

Notice that he wrote these things in the PAST TENSE as they in God's sight are already accomplished.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among may brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom he called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Rom. 8:29,30)

Past Tense -
foreknew - done,
predestinated - done,
called - done,
justified - done,
conformed - done,
glorified - done.

I do believe that when we become fully New Jerusalem that it will probably feel like we have always been here.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]It is difficult to explain. Then there is also the matter of man's free will tied into they equation as well.
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Yes, it is difficult to comprehend and explain for me. Maybe it is impossible to do so exhaustively.

But it is hard to explain this -

To m ...[text shortened]... n we become fully New Jerusalem that it will probably feel like we have always been here.[/b]

That explanation works for me.

I'm interested in your thoughts on limited atonement vs unlimited atonement.

Originally posted by josephw
That explanation works for me.

I'm interested in your thoughts on limited atonement vs unlimited atonement.

I would have to research what those phrases mean josephw.

Originally posted by josephw
That explanation works for me.

I'm interested in your thoughts on limited atonement vs unlimited atonement.

I like thesound of unlimited atonement. But that of course is not too rigorous.

I mean the blood of Christ is the foundation of all of our being reconciled to God.

This matter may have some difference kind of expression in the phrases I like to use.

Originally posted by sonship
I like thesound of unlimited atonement. But that of course is not too rigorous.

I mean the blood of Christ is the foundation of all of our being reconciled to God.

This matter may have some difference kind of expression in the phrases I like to use.

From what I understand about limited vs unlimited atonement it seems that limited atonement means that only a select number of people receive salvation, but with unlimited atonement all are saved.

I think the words "limited" and "unlimited" are unnecessary additions to the idea of atonement. The "atonement", or "reconciliation", is "unlimited" in its application to those that believe, but to those that don't believe there is no application of atonement.

The qualifier is in believing. The atonement is not applied to the unbelieving in a universal sense as some seem to think. As abhorrent as it may sound, those that choose to reject God's Christ will be judged and consigned to an eternity separated from the love of God.

If the atonement is unlimited and universally applied to every person who ever lived irrespective of one's believing or not, then how is it said of Judas by Jesus that "it had been good for that man if he had not been born"?

Originally posted by josephw
From what I understand about limited vs unlimited atonement it seems that limited atonement means that only a select number of people receive salvation, but with unlimited atonement all are saved.

I think the words "limited" and "unlimited" are unnecessary additions to the idea of atonement. The "atonement", or "reconciliation", is "unlimited" in its appl ...[text shortened]... n how is it said of Judas by Jesus that "it had been good for that man if he had not been born"?

I believe that Christ died a redemptive death for all whoever lived.
The term Substitution I understand to mean this atonement is applied to those who believe. When we receive Him the Substitution of Christ in our place for eternal judgment is applied.

There are unknowns to me as to how Substitution will be applied in some situations which at least I could imagine.

"Substitution", I don't think, is a word found in the Bible itself.

Originally posted by sonship
I believe that Christ died a redemptive death for all whoever lived.
The term [b]Substitution I understand to mean this atonement is applied to those who believe. When we receive Him the Substitution of Christ in our place for eternal judgment is applied.

There are unknowns to me as to how Substitution will be applied in some situations which at lea ...[text shortened]... t I could imagine.

"Substitution", I don't think, is a word found in the Bible itself.[/b]

I think "propitiate" is the appropriate word in this case.

Romans 3:25,26
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

"...of him which believeth in Jesus." That's the qualifier. One must "believe" or remain unsaved.

The idea of a universal application of the atonement to everyone irrespective of personal belief is not Biblical. It is Biblical however that Christ died a redemptive death for all, but only is the atonement applied to those who believe.

Originally posted by josephw
I think "propitiate" is the appropriate word in this case.

Romans 3:25,26
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which b ...[text shortened]... Christ died a redemptive death for all, but only is the atonement applied to those who believe.

It seems you are saying that Jesus died for our sins.....but with a 'catch'....you must believe that He did it.

For such a supreme sacrifice, could it be possible that ALL benefit? Regardless of belief?

It seems that God would not be so petty to demand we believe something that happened 2,000 years ago, or be damned to hell.

Originally posted by josephw
That's a direct contradiction of what the Word of God teaches.

Salvation is for all, but eternal life is given to those who believe.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

God's righteousness is by faith of Jesus Christ [b]unto all, but upon all who believe.

If one doesn't believe they are not saved. That's a clear Biblical truth.[/b]

You have eternal life so long as your belief is sufficiently correct, sincere, and freely chosen, or so this forum's Christians seem to think.

Originally posted by sonship
Why stop at the atonement ?

He is able to save us to the UTTERMOST ... THE UTTERMOST ... that is all the way to completely without blemish and glorified.

Why stop at atonement when it is only the beginning ?

Who's "stopping"?

Meanwhile back in eternal hell Jesus the attorning lamb watches the carnage...

Originally posted by chaney3
It seems you are saying that Jesus died for our sins.....but with a 'catch'....you must believe that He did it.

For such a supreme sacrifice, could it be possible that ALL benefit? Regardless of belief?

It seems that God would not be so petty to demand we believe something that happened 2,000 years ago, or be damned to hell.

"It seems you are saying that Jesus died for our sins.....but with a 'catch'....you must believe that He did it."

That's what the Bible teaches.

"For such a supreme sacrifice, could it be possible that ALL benefit? Regardless of belief?"

The sacrifice was made for ALL. Believing is a choice, an act of the will. Can I make you believe? Of course not. Would God force you to believe? Can He? If God could force you to believe against your will, then you're just an automaton. God respects your free will, but God is God and the deal is on His terms.

"It seems that God would not be so petty to demand we believe something that happened 2,000 years ago, or be damned to hell."

Petty? Nothing petty about it. Everyone will die. It's what comes after that matters. They say no one knows what comes after death. And they don't. But you can. If you believe. It's true.