@philokalia saidI am not David Plotz. And I am not Duchess64.
The Original Post:
Numbers 31 (commentary by David Plotz)
"Here is most hideous war crime in a Bible filled with them."
The accounts based on which we know to blame the Hebrews for war crimes are from the Bible.
What "accusations" have I made?
The Hebrews wanted the land. There were people on it. They believed the people were "wicked" and they wrote down that their god told them to do kill them and move onto their land. These are not "accusations". It's a summary.
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@deepthought saidNo evidence.
Is there any evidence whatsoever (obviously with the exception of the biblical account) that any of this actually happened? Given the numbers claimed that scale of warfare would leave destruction layers in multiple cities in a very short space of time. Is there any of this?
We are only really discussing a theoretical war crime, described in a book of pure fiction. (Not that it makes the account any less horrendous to read).
19 Feb 19
@fmf saidOh, sorry, I guess we had a mix up.
I am not David Plotz. And I am not Duchess64.
What "accusations" have I made?
The Hebrews wanted the land. There were people on it. They believed the people were "wicked" and they wrote down that their god told them to do kill them and move onto their land. These are not "accusations". It's a summary.
So, tell me, you are basing your concept on what happened to the Midianites on what..?
The stories of the Bible, right?
19 Feb 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHonestly, Ghost, I recommend reading a lot about Biblical archaeology.
No evidence.
We are only really discussing a theoretical war crime, described in a book of pure fiction. (Not that it makes the account any less horrendous to read).
I am sure you will find some stuff in there that will bolster your atheism -- but you will also find a heck of a lot of material that will inform you on the veracity of loads of claims of the Bible. Perhaps you do not have to believe that it happened exactly as how it was described in the Bible, but we can know that the cities that were sieged and attacked [were sieged and attacked, and that the cities that were destroyed were destroyed.
The narrative of informed atheists is no longer that the Bible is a work of fiction, but merely that the Bible plays off of these actual events to build the story that they want around them.
19 Feb 19
@philokalia saidOn an account that was written by the perpetrators in which they justify what they did - the killings and the taking of the land - as being in accordance with the wishes of a supernatural being.
So, tell me, you are basing your concept on what happened to the Midianites on what..?
19 Feb 19
@fmf said... And we come full circle.
The Hebrew scriptures are your only source for your accusations against the Midianites?
Because, ultimately, the Hebrew scriptures are the only source for your accusations against the Hebrews, and the only source for accusations against the Midianites.
He chooses to believe the trajectory of the Hebrew scriptures...
And he points out that the Hebrews had prophets who condemned themselves regularly, and with great gusto. This lends a little bit of thought to the concept of them being objective.
Even King David is condemned for his adulterous affair in the Old Testament, while simultnaeously being a hero at other points...
So, IDK, seems like just deciding to cherrypick the OT in your favor isn't the most objective thing you can do here, you know what I mean?
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19 Feb 19
@philokalia saidSplendid sir.
Honestly, Ghost, I recommend reading a lot about Biblical archaeology.
I am sure you will find some stuff in there that will bolster your atheism -- but you will also find a heck of a lot of material that will inform you on the veracity of loads of claims of the Bible. Perhaps you do not have to believe that it happened exactly as how it was described in the Bible, bu ...[text shortened]... erely that the Bible plays off of these actual events to build the story that they want around them.
As an uninformed atheist, I am particularly open to your instruction pertaining to the veracity of any evidence from either history or archaeology of the plagues that ravaged Egypt in the story of the Exodus or of the loss of an entire Egyptian army, including 600 chariots (Exodus 14:7).
19 Feb 19
@philokalia saidWhat "accusations" have I been making?
Because, ultimately, the Hebrew scriptures are the only source for your accusations against the Hebrews, and the only source for accusations against the Midianites.
19 Feb 19
@philokalia saidThis is not relevant to the Hebrew claim that their God told them to kill the Midianites and take their land. All it means is that you and sonship think the Hebrew God did order the Hebrews to do it. I am absolutely not cherry-picking, not at all. You are surely not trying to describe what the Hebrews wrote about Midianites and about how they were told to do it by their God is "objective" based merely on the fact that the Old Testament is a 'warts and all' story?
And he points out that the Hebrews had prophets who condemned themselves regularly, and with great gusto. This lends a little bit of thought to the concept of them being objective.
Even King David is condemned for his adulterous affair in the Old Testament, while simultnaeously being a hero at other points...
So, IDK, seems like just deciding to cherrypick the OT in your favor isn't the most objective thing you can do here, you know what I mean?
19 Feb 19
@philokalia saidAre you aware of any archeological evidence specific to the destruction of the Midianites?
Honestly, Ghost, I recommend reading a lot about Biblical archaeology.
I am sure you will find some stuff in there that will bolster your atheism -- but you will also find a heck of a lot of material that will inform you on the veracity of loads of claims of the Bible. Perhaps you do not have to believe that it happened exactly as how it was described in the Bible, bu ...[text shortened]... erely that the Bible plays off of these actual events to build the story that they want around them.
@Duchess64
I guess it is good that most historians believe that the whole Exodus thing was just a fabricated story, myth or perhaps a way to justify barbaric behavior. Their religious law permitted rape. Nice god they got there.
@sonship saidRape was only a crime if the woman was promised to another man at the time of the rape.
@caissad4
Their religious law permitted rape.
Show us the statute.
Show us the law.
In your next post please.
Under normal circumstances (sick people) a Hebrew man could rape any woman and then pay 50 shekels to her father and force her to marry him.
Look it up yourself, you flipping apologist.
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@sonship
While caissd4 gets her evidence for proving God's law permitted fornication -
In the New Testament the Rabbi turned disciple of Christ and apostle knew all about the law of Moses. In his letter to Timothy he comments on some of the things which were AGAINST all healthy teaching and including that of the gospel of the glory of the blessed God.
Let's look at some of the things mentioned in his [representative] list.
Knowing this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly,...
Next he enumerates some representative (not exhaustive) transgressions against God's law.
"for smitters of fathers and smitters of mothers,
for manslayers,
for fornicators,
So much for God ordaining rape.
cont.
" ...for fornicators,
homosexuals,
kidnappers,
So much for stealing men and women for slavery.
cont.
" Knowing that the law is not enacted for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane,
for smiters of fathers,
and smiters of mothers,
for fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers ..."
Paul is listing behaviors of the "ungodly" and the "unholy" which are also opposed to the law of God and of even the New Testament "healthy teaching".
liars,
perjurers,
and if there be any other thing opposed to healthy teaching.
According to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted." (See First Timothy 1:8-11)
In case you missed it - fornication (certainly including RAPE) is opposed to healthy teaching, opposed to the law of God, and opposed to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which Paul was entrusted.
Now caissad4 should have her evidence of divine ordained rape by now. Let's see what she's got in the way of commands from the law of Moses.
