We are Body, Soul and Spirit

Originally posted by JS357
So where is Adam?

Originally posted by Rajk999: Adams body is in the grave somewhere. His soul went back to God.


So where is Adam? Anyone?

Originally posted by JS357
Originally posted by Rajk999: Adams body is in the grave somewhere. His soul went back to God.


So where is Adam? Anyone?

Now where at all. He has returned to the dust that he was made from. The Bible says "the soul that is sinning will die". He sinned and he died. The Bible clearly said it was his soul that died and we also know his body died and was burried. So his soul/body did die just as God warned him.
There is absolutly no mention of something living on to survive in some manner. Adam's existance ended the day he died.
God did not tell Adam that some other part of him would survive and if it had then the penilty of death would not have been truthful statement by God.

Originally posted by galveston75
I still have not seen one scripture that says anyones soul went to heaven to God or to hell or anywhere. I'm still wating to see that said anywhere in the bible...............

In the following scripture souis are seen before the alter of God in heaven
waiting for God's judgment and vengeance.

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the
testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice,
saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and
avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to
each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little
while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who
were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)

Originally posted by jaywill

The word intuition may be used many ways. When we use it in relation to the intuition of the regenerated human spirit we are speaking of an knowing God's will in a supernatural way. However, because of the limitation of human language we cannot insist that intuition as a word cannot be applied to other natural phenomena. This is just a matter of words not being solely the property of the Christian experience.
..............
I think I have established that the words used by some Bible students concerning the function of the regenerated human spirit are not the sole property of theology. Of course the Zoologist or Socialogist may use words like intuition and fellowship to discribed phenomenons related to those sciences. [/b]

Okay so the use of terms in the Bible has a priviliged meaning or sense which relies on the operation of a spiritual world. The same words are used with analagous meaning in this material world which can be understood without reference to the spiritual. In both cases, a lot of thought and study is required to use the terms correctly and with sensible implications and to avoid confusion.

That all makes sense if there is a spiritual world and no sense if there is none.

It is possible, with struggle, to make the bible intelligible. Those who dispute this assertion are not putting in the work to understand the content.

It is possible to make the material world intelligible without reference to the bible. This cannot be refuted by reference to the bible because in order for the bible to make sense, it has to assume the reality of a spiritual world and an assumption is not a proof of anything.

To answer the question whether the bible is a web of deception or a valid guide requires some point of leverage on which to rest the debate. Saint Augustine, for example, took the view that there is none.

The route by which the bible is interpreted is argued to include spiritual insight, but arising from that emerges nevertheless a reasoned argument or "exegesis." This can survive as long as it does not accept external tests from principles of Reason. Anselm, Aquinas and many others stumbled on this obstacle. They were, inter alia, returning to the Greek philophy which Augustine was retreating from. The oil - and -water conflict of Western philosophy and Christian theology has been present from the outset, sometimes fertilising and sometimes posioning the well.

Without some external test of validity, how are we to evaluate claims to spiritual insight or indeed divine inspiration? Here is an extreme example of the way faith moves mountains. In China in the 1840s and 1850s, influenced by American missionaries who in turn were energised by America's "Great Awakening," Hong Xiuquan decided that he had received spiritual messages from God, in person, on which basis he merged what he was presented with by the missionaries (especially Revelations!) with Chinese thinking to devise a form of Christianity that gained huge numbers of converts, and led to the Taiping Rebellion in which an estimated 20 million people died. The entire event was based on intense reading of the scriptures and a powerful social message. Somehow, it is clear that sincerity, intense spirituality, deep study and absolute commitment are not tests of anything other than the human capacity for building idealised castles in the air. It is a shame idealists are unable to count the cost of their desire to build a perfect world.

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the following scripture souis are seen before the alter of God in heaven
waiting for God's judgment and vengeance.

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the
testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice,
saying, “Ho ...[text shortened]...
were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)

John describes a moving scene: “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” (Revelation 6:9) What is that? A sacrificial altar up in heaven? Yes! It is the first time that John mentions an altar. Already, though, he has described Jehovah on His throne, the surrounding cherubs, the glassy sea, the lamps, and the 24 elders carrying incense—all of these resembling features of the earthly tabernacle, Jehovah’s sanctuary in Israel. (Exodus 25:17, 18; 40:24-27, 30-32; 1 Chronicles 24:4) Should it, then, surprise us to find a symbolic altar of sacrifice also in heaven?—Exodus 40:29.

Underneath this altar are “the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” What does this mean? These could not be disembodied souls—like those believed in by the pagan Greeks. (Genesis 2:7; Ezekiel 18:4) Rather, John knows that the soul, or life, is symbolized by the blood, and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal, they sprinkled the blood “round about upon the altar” or poured it “at the base of the altar of burnt offering.” (Leviticus 3:2, 8, 13; 4:7; 17:6, 11, 12) Hence, the animal’s soul was closely identified with the altar of sacrifice. But why would the souls, or blood, of these particular servants of God be seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven? Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.

Indeed, all those who are begotten as spirit sons of God die a sacrificial death. Because of the role they are to play in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom, it is God’s will that they renounce and sacrifice any hope of life everlasting on earth. In this respect, they submit to a sacrificial death in behalf of Jehovah’s sovereignty. (Philippians 3:8-11; compare 2:17.) This is true in a very real sense of those whom John saw under the altar. They are anointed ones who in their day were martyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Jehovah’s Word and sovereignty. Their “souls were slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work martyrian that they used to have.”

“Yes,” continues John, “I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand.” (Revelation 20:4b) Among those kings, then, are the anointed Christian martyrs who earlier, at the opening of the fifth seal, asked Jehovah how much longer he would wait to avenge their blood. At that time, they were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer. But now they have been avenged through the devastating of Babylon the Great, the destruction of the nations by the King of kings and Lord of lords, and the abyssing of Satan.—Revelation 6:9-11; 17:16; 19:15, 16.

No where in these scriptures does it say the "soul" that he sees is something alive and this is meerly nothing more then an explination of the blood that was crying out for vengence for the illegal way they had been killed when alive on earth for justice.
One knows blood cannot actually cry out and a dead soul cannot actually cry or speak out. This is symbolic of the anointed or the 144,000 that were already in heaven and asking when the justice for their deaths would be served.

I know you won't read this all the way thru but if you want to learn the deeper things in the Bible, you should.

Any more scriptures that say the soul "lives" on in some other mysterious place?

Also where is Adam and Eves souls if they didn't die?

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the following scripture souis are seen before the alter of God in heaven
waiting for God's judgment and vengeance.

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the
testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice,
saying, “Ho ...[text shortened]...
were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)

RJ and G75, This is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned, but the whole business about people having bodies and souls (and maybe, spirits) is taken very seriously and I am curious why that is, other than as a point of pure dogma -- believe it because it is said in the Bible.

G75 says Adam is nowhere, for he sinned and his soul/body died. This raises the question whether everyone is in this same boat. Are there some who after their bodily death are still alive in their soul? What lives on? RJ says there is testimony of souls being in heaven, even speaking souls, who speak of "our" blood (which means they believe they possess or possessed a body. They act like they are persons, not just souls. They are "I's".)

How can these speaking souls, who speak of "our blood" be other than the "I" that we each think of when we say "I have a body," or "I have a soul." Is it more accurate to say "I am a soul?" It just seems to me that the concept is confused and ambiguous. It seems to me that most Christians who believe in the soul, act like they are their soul, it is their essence. It is not their body they are thinking of when they say "I". But most non-theists tend to use "I" more to express the belief that they exist over and above everything that is "theirs", even "their" feelings and thoughts.

This is not just, or is not primarily, a religious question. I know that you both begin with the premise that the Bible is true, even though you disagree with one another on what it says, and this is not an effort to change that. It is just that the question, "Who is speaking when I hear, 'I have a body' or 'I have a soul'" is interesting to me. Are you the sum total of your body/soul(/spirit), or are you more, or other than, the sum total of these parts? How do you use the word "I"?

Originally posted by galveston75
John describes a moving scene: “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” (Revelation 6:9) What is that? A sacrificial altar up in heaven? Yes! It is the first time that John mentions an altar. Already, though, he has des in some other mysterious place?

Also where is Adam and Eves souls if they didn't die?

Did you get this idea from the Watchtower publications?

Not all souls go to the third Heaven after the body dies like these. Some just
sleep, others remain as ghosts for awhile, others are imprisioned and tormented
in a place in hell, like the evil rich man that ignored the beggars request for
crumbs and the people that would not repent before the flood of Noah's day
and to whom Christ went there to preach during the three days his body lie in
the tomb.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Did you get this idea from the Watchtower publications?

Not all souls go to the third Heaven after the body dies like these. Some just
sleep, others remain as ghosts for awhile, others are imprisioned and tormented
in a place in hell, like the evil rich man that ignored the beggars request for
crumbs and the people that would not repent before the fl s day
and to whom Christ went there to preach during the three days his body lie in
the tomb.

others are imprisioned and tormented in a place in hell, like the evil rich man that ignored the beggars request for crumbs and the people that would not repent before the flood of Noah's day and to whom Christ went there to preach during the three days his body lie in the tomb.

Interesting bit of preaching that must have been. Hi guys. Here you are then, in hell, being tormented for your evil ways. How long has it been since Noah's Flood? That long, eh! Never mind. Thing is that this is all part of my plan and it's okay really because it is Just, you see. In time you'll get around to seeing things my way. Not that there is much in the way of time here either. Which reminds me. I can't hang around. I'm back off to heaven myself. Lovely place - wish you could be there with me but, well it's not going to happen is it?

One inconsistency however. I thought that the "people" drowned in the Flood were not really humans, but the progeny of demons who had contaminated the human race?

Originally posted by finnegan
Originally posted by jaywill

[quote]The word intuition may be used many ways. When we use it in relation to the intuition of the regenerated human spirit we are speaking of an knowing God's will in a supernatural way. However, because of the limitation of human language we cannot insist that [b]intuition as a word cannot be applied to other ...[text shortened]... s a shame idealists are unable to count the cost of their desire to build a perfect world.[/b]

I hope you are not suggesting that man should submit to tyranny to prevent
the death of the body.

Originally posted by JS357
RJ and G75, This is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned, but the whole business about people having bodies and souls (and maybe, spirits) is taken very seriously and I am curious why that is, other than as a point of pure dogma -- believe it because it is said in the Bible.

G75 says Adam is nowhere, for he sinned and his soul/body died. This rais ...[text shortened]... than, the sum total of these parts? How do you use the word "I"?

RJ and G75, This is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned, but the whole business about people having bodies and souls (and maybe, spirits) is taken very seriously and I am curious why that is, other than as a point of pure dogma -- believe it because it is said in the Bible.

The difference is crucial because of the discernment of spiritual reality from religion.

Originally posted by jaywill

RJ and G75, This is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned, but the whole business about people having bodies and souls (and maybe, spirits) is taken very seriously and I am curious why that is, other than as a point of pure dogma -- believe it because it is said in the Bible.

The difference is crucial because of the discernment of spiritual reality from religion.

Discernment: The ability to judge well. I am discussing the reality of the situation. What do we refer to when we say "I"?

I am interested in what it is that says "I have a soul" or I have a body" or the various ways that people have of speaking of body, soul and spirit as if these entities are "other" to them. What is it that "has" a soul?

eg:

New International Version (©1984)
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

http://bible.cc/isaiah/26-9.htm

Almost all versions speak of the "I" as if it is not the soul. The soul seems to be a possession of, say, the writer of Isaiah.

When I say this may be a tempest in a teapot, I mean that it probably does not weigh on the minds of most Christians. It doesn't weigh on mine either, but I am interested.

Originally posted by JS357
Discernment: The ability to judge well. I am discussing the reality of the situation. What do we refer to when we say "I"?

I am interested in what it is that says "I have a soul" or I have a body" or the various ways that people have of speaking of body, soul and spirit as if these entities are "other" to them. What is it that "has" a soul?

eg:

New In the minds of most Christians. It doesn't weigh on mine either, but I am interested.

You are a living soul at home in a body. You are NOT a body that has a soul.
When the life-giving spirit departs the body, then it dies and begins to decay
and return to elements from which it came. But God has reserved the soul to
be judged for what it did while in the body. So there are various places to which
the soul can be held based upon a quick judgment. This is something like when
someone is accused and must face a court trial at some future time to determine
the final verdict of quilt or innocence and any punishment or reward by the Judge.

P.S. You can understand Isaiah better if you replace "my soul" with "my mind".

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are a living soul at home in a body. You are NOT a body that has a soul.
When the life-giving spirit departs the body, then it dies and begins to decay
and return to elements from which it came. But God has reserved the soul to
be judged for what it did while in the body. So there are various places to which
the soul can be held based upon a quic ...[text shortened]... he Judge.

P.S. You can understand Isaiah better if you replace "my soul" with "my mind".

Thanks, although if I get to replace words, I prefer the following, also from http://bible.cc/isaiah/26-9.htm

New Living Translation (©2007)
"All night long I search for you; in the morning I earnestly seek for God. For only when you come to judge the earth will people learn what is right."

I would get rid of the artificial distinctions of soul, body, spirit; and just say "I" or "me." I believe that "I earnestly seek" expresses what "My soul" expresses, without conjuring up a magical thing called the soul for people to bicker over.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I hope you are not suggesting that man should submit to tyranny to prevent
the death of the body.

I hope you are not suggesting that if the Taiping Rebellion was led by a Christian then it must have been part of the good fight against tyranny? Not, for example, the usurping by a megalomoniac with the delusion that he was the older brother of Jesus of the social chaos caused by the Opium Wars, in which the Western powers totally undermined the ability of the Chinese authorities to maintain any semblance of order, while their missionaries spread millenarian fantasies based on a dubious reading of Revelations, itself a dubious inclusion in the Bible. Had the gunboats of the west - including the US - not been hammering Peking and other major centres at the time, this idiotic messiah would not have achieved the influence he did in a lawless region.

Originally posted by finnegan
I hope you are not suggesting that if the Taiping Rebellion was led by a Christian then it must have been part of the good fight against tyranny? Not, for example, the usurping by a megalomoniac with the delusion that he was the older brother of Jesus of the social chaos caused by the Opium Wars, in which the Western powers totally undermined the ability of ...[text shortened]... the time, this idiotic messiah would not have achieved the influence he did in a lawless region.

I know nothing of the Taiping Rebellion. It does not concern me. But I do
believe in man's right to speak up and fight for freedom.