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31 May 14
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Originally posted by KellyJay
Revelation 3: 11-13 NIV
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The verses you supplied are helpful.
They show the connection and continuation of the practical genuine church life and the New Jerusalem at the close of the book of Revelation.
They show also the connection and continuation of the normal church life and the kingdom in the millennium.
The crown is already obtained by the church in "brotherly love" - "Philadelphia". The saints in this harmony of love must simply be vigilant that the crown is not taken.
I wrote that Christians should be in the foretaste today of what we will have a full taste of in eternity future. The passage you referred to above bears this out. The church in Philadelphia is at the standard and merely needs to not lose the prize already being foretasted.
The exhortation is quite like that to the Colossians -
"Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize ..." (v.18)
"Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ." (v.8)
The tone of both warnings is that the saints in the normal church life have the prize. They should see to it that they do not in anyway lose it. This is not the eternal salvation they are exhorted not to lose, but the prize of the most normal and up to the standard being victorious and overcoming believers.
See the similarity?
"11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown "
Just before the second coming of the Lord we know that some believers will be in the normal overcoming church experience.
Notice also that those for whom Jesus says He will make pillars in the New Jerusalem are characterized by love for the brothers. Otherwise the exhortation would not be to "Philadelphia" - which means "brotherly love".
Briefly, we can see by this that the building of both the church and the New Jerusalem must be in divine love between Christian brothers and sisters. Transformation and love are the ingredients which go into the "building" of the church and the New Jerusalem. To underscore this one might review First Corinthians chapter 13 which shows the preeminence of love in God's economy.
Notice also that the church here which is so closely connected to the New Jerusalem is not a church of so-called "spriitual giants". She has only a little strength. We could take this to mean that the saints are quite typical everyday believers. They are not particularly strong in themselves or extraordinarily gifted. But their love for one another makes them prevailing.
Right here - " ... because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name." (v.8)
They are faithful to exalt only ONE name - the name of Jesus.
They are not particularly endowed with power. But they are faithful to what they have from the Lord.
Notice that not only Christ promises them an unremovable place in the New Jerusalem but an open door into the millennial kingdom age as well.
"I know your works; behold, have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, ..." (v.8a)
This should be the door into the next age of the millennial kingdom where the overcomers will reign with Christ as co-kings. I say this because of this passage just previous -
"And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One, the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens." (v.7)
The "key of David" certainly is related to opening the Messianic kingdom which is to commence at the second coming of Christ. These saints in brotherly love and holding to the one name of the Lord Jesus have before them an open door into the coming kingdom in which Christ will sit upon the throne of David ruling the earth from Jerusalem.
No one can shut this door. He opens it and no one can close it. They only need to hold fast to the ovecoming testimony that they enjoy in the church age.
31 May 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't know. However, I don't want to jump to conclusions for a new heaven and earth that may have different laws and different geometry.
No statement that it is a cube?
It says this;; The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
How is that not a cube?
31 May 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYou must be an American. At least google the thing before answering.
I don't know. However, I don't want to jump to conclusions for a new heaven and earth that may have different laws and different geometry.
The US is reputed to be have the most atrocious education in basic mathematics. Any object where is length, breath and height are equal must be a cube.
Why cant the New Jerusalem have different geometry ? Would that violate some of your preconceived assumptions.
31 May 14
Originally posted by Paul Dirac IIIm sure the idea that the chosen are destined to be a more advanced lifeform [like Christ], should dispel the notion that man in his original form was intended to be 'pinacle' anything.
As an agnostic, I don't have a horse in the race, so to speak. I would hope the writer of Genesis was sophisticated enough to have no expectation that a purported universal Creator was a bipedal mammal with a digestive tract and so on, such that he was not writing about the three-dimensional configuration when he wrote "in the image of God." But ...[text shortened]... he evolutionary tree rather than the model of polished perfection was certainly not grasped yet.
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31 May 14
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The idea is that what the seven churches are in chapters 2 and 3 ends up being what the New Jerusalem is. The seven churches are the prototype and the New Jerusalem is the consummation.
The seven churches are lampstands in cities.
The New Jerusalem is universal lampstand for the whole universe.
That's the concept we should understand.
What the seven churches are locally is what the New Jerusalem is universally.
The seven churches in the beginning of Revelation are golden lampstands.
The New Jerusalem at the end is a golden mountain.
She is effectively a concluding lampstand for the whole earth.
The local churches are local to cities.
The New Jerusalem is universal for the whole earth.
New Jerusalem is a universal golden lampstand, the climax of all the individual local lampstands in chapters 2 and 3.
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31 May 14
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Originally posted by Rajk999What do you mean by "a more advanced lifeform [like Christ]" ?
Im sure the idea that the chosen are destined to be a more advanced lifeform [like Christ], should dispel the notion that man in his original form was intended to be 'pinacle' anything.
Whatever Christ is, the saved will eventually be "like Him".
"Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will e. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (First John 3:2)
"We" the saved ones, the redeemed ones, will be "like Him" .
God's purpose is to conform the believers to the image of Christ so that Christ is the "Firstborn among many brothers".
"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)
So we believers in Christ are to be "like Him" and "conformed" to His image.
Christ is also described as the Firstborn Son of God leanding many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory ..." (Hebrews 2:10)
The only begotten is still the only begotten in one sense. But in another sense He is the FIRST begotten among many OTHER begotten. So He is called the Firstborn. And He is leading the way with many sons following Him into the glorious expression of the Divine eternal life.
"And when He [God] brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth ..." (Hebrews 1:6) .
Though He came as the ONLY begotten. He comes again with the title of "the Firstborn" for He the First among many other sons of God.
What's in your spirit ?
31 May 14
Originally posted by Paul Dirac IIMy initial advice would to not listen to Biily Graham's daughter. Why you would do so in the first place is another topic.
My experiences of listening to the minister's sermons and interacting in Sunday school classes during my churchgoing youth left me with the impression that once the 1000-year reign of Jesus on Earth is completed, all humans become purely spirit and live on forever in Heaven or Hell, whichever may be the case for each individual.
Heaven was not some ...[text shortened]... our understanding of the future and the afterlife different than mine was when I was one of you?
01 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999A cube is defined as a symmetrical three-dimensional shape, either solid or hollow, contained by six equal squares.
You must be an American. At least google the thing before answering.
The US is reputed to be have the most atrocious education in basic mathematics. Any object where is length, breath and height are equal must be a cube.
Why cant the New Jerusalem have different geometry ? Would that violate some of your preconceived assumptions.
Why must an object that is equal in length, breath and height be a cube? Couldn't it also be a pyramid, sphere, or an object with rounded corners that has the same length, breath and height?
01 Jun 14
Originally posted by RJHindsThat's what I like about the Bible. It gives redundant info that makes twisting difficult. The L, B, H are equal, so normally most would say its a cube. But then it also says 'the city lieth four square'.
A cube is defined as a symmetrical three-dimensional shape, either solid or hollow, contained by six equal squares.
Why must an object that is equal in length, breath and height be a cube? Couldn't it also be a pyramid, sphere, or an object with rounded corners that has the same length, breath and height?
01 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou answered your own question.
What do you mean by "a more advanced lifeform [like Christ]" ?
Whatever Christ is, the saved will eventually be [b]"like Him".
"Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will e. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (First John 3:2)
" ...[text shortened]... e Firstborn" for He the First among many other sons of God.
What's in your spirit ?[/b]
01 Jun 14
3 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterAh, that ain't nothin'. I spent many hours in the 1990s and 2000s listening to "Prophet Dr." Ronald Dubrul on Christian radio. He invited people to call in to his show to "get a word from the Lord" through him.
My initial advice would to not listen to Biily Graham's daughter. Why you would do so in the first place is another topic.
He also prayed for callers' needs, such as healing or finances, and he wasn't above doing a little "phishing." As an example, a woman who called his show sounded like she was frail and at least 80 years old. The conversation started out this way:
Lady: "Er, uh, hello Prophet Ron."
Dr. Dubrul: "Hello there. Praise God! Is old Arthur bothering you?"
Lady: "Eh, beg pardon?"
Dr. Dubrul: "Arthritis. Is your arthritis bothering you?"
Lady: "No, I don't have arthritis--"
Dr. Dubrul: "Oh... well, that wasn't for you then." [Meaning Almighty God had goofed in not making it clear to the prophet that the arthritis problem went with some other person who might be calling later in the program or later in the week, I suppose.]
Christian radio and Christian television can be entertaining. More Prophet Dubrul stories available from me at your request. 🙂
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01 Jun 14
Originally posted by Rajk999
Im sure the idea that the chosen are destined to be a more advanced lifeform [like Christ], should dispel the notion that man in his original form was intended to be 'pinacle' anything.
Im sure the idea that the chosen are destined to be a more advanced lifeform [like Christ], should dispel the notion that man in his original form was intended to be 'pinacle' anything.
No other creature created was endowed with the potentiality to be constituents of the New Jerusalem. So man was most unique among all the created beings from God.
I think this indeed makes the created man a the pinnacle of creation.
One among the "species" of angels had become a total failure of his own volition. To replace and supersede this being God created a creature out of the dust of the ground - man. This explains the intense hatred Satan has for the human race.
Man was created with a capacity that no angel ever had. That capacity was to contain God's life. God lived in no angel. Not even within the highest angelic being - Daystar, the anointed Cherub, did God indwell so as to be mingled with any creature.
Man was created as a vessel to contain God. Man created in the image of God means that man is created in a kind of "God-shape" for the purpose that God would dispensed into him.
This is why we have the vessel of man in the image in Genesis chapter one but we have man before "the tree of life" in chapter two. How man was created was not man's choice. That was ordained by God. But for man to take into himself the content for which he was created, is not automatic. God created man to CHOOSE Himself as inner life as signified by Adam and Eve being before "the tree of life" which was in the center of the garden.
Though man made the wrong choice initially God's eternal purpose cannot be stopped. Eventually He obtains this corporate man filled with God Himself. The eternal content enters into the creature created in His image. And the climax of this dispensing of God into man is seen in Revelation 21 and 22 - the New Jerusalem.
I think it is proper to view created man as at the top of the pinnacle of all God's creatures. Satan thought he was at the top until he was in for an unlikely surprise. The dusty new creature human kind was created and placed before the life of God signified in "the tree of life".
Also God became a man in Jesus Christ. So whatever creature God became surely must be at the pinnacle of His creation.