What created God?

Originally posted by googlefudge
If god has existed for an infinite amount of time he will have done everything
he can do an infinite number of times.

So anything he hasn't already done he can't do.


EDIT: This of course means that a god that has existed (and will exist) for ever will have not
only have created an infinite number of other universes, but he will have created an ial chosen people" line.


This is an inescapable conclusion if god has existed forever.

If god has existed for an infinite amount of time he will have done everything
he can do an infinite number of times.
I have taken issue with a number of people on this point, it's difficult to say what, in a hypothetical sense, would be the cardinality of the infinite number of things a god or anything else could supposedly do and then say this is equal to the cardinality of infinity as it relates to time. As an example supposing we say that the size of infinity for time is aleph-zero (i.e. size of the integers or rationals, or n-tuples of rationals even), taking the powerset of this set is a bigger infinity (size of the reals), the powerset of that is bigger still, and so on...

As such I strongly disagree that given infinite time one must eventually do all things possible infinitely many times.

Originally posted by tomtom232
If God created the universe then what created God?

Well, I propose that God did. What, you say? That is laughably circular!

It is circular but not laughably so.

Just read on.

Take an infinite line, we'll call it eternity.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

The absolute value of a s forward as a fact just as a possible and interesting answer to a controversial question.

The question here involves the issue of time. Time is simply a property of the material universe. So it stands to reason that when the material universe was created, ie the Big Bang, time was created. God existed before the material universe and the subsequent creation of time. Before this point, his existence is an unknown in a demension unfathomable because it is completly foriegn to us. So in the unknown demension, time did not exist, God simply IS. Therefore, to ask who created God is nonsensical.

Originally posted by Agerg
I don't disagree that infinity is not a number (unless we are talking about certain branches of mathematics, such as hyperbolic geometry, that append the point at infinity to the reals for convenience)

However if we suppose time started at the big bang (I'm not a physicist btw but that seems to be the standard way of thinking - correct me if I'm wrong) coup ...[text shortened]... number of steps between that point and any point prior. In such case infinities don't occur.

Indeed, if time started a finite time ago then the issue does not arise.

However there is a possibility that it did not.

Which is the case I thought we were discussing.


The problem with the big bang theory in the standard model is that it has a singularity.
Which we can't currently get past, and I don't think actually existed.

Singularities are a function of GR which doesn't match up with quantum theory.

The Current proposed solutions to the issue of quantum gravity don't produce singularities
and allow for there to be a before the big bang.

However they have yet to be tested.

Most cosmologists (as far as I am aware) tend towards there being a before the big bang of some sort
and that the universe is probably always extant, in one form or another.

This doesn't mean the bit we are in didn't form in a big bang explosion but that it didn't start from a
bunch of infinities.

Originally posted by tomtom232
If God created the universe then what created God?

Well, I propose that God did. What, you say? That is laughably circular!

It is circular but not laughably so.

Just read on.

Take an infinite line, we'll call it eternity.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

The absolute value of a ...[text shortened]... s forward as a fact just as a possible and interesting answer to a controversial question.

The universe is finite.

And it is existing in a material conglomerate of material energy.

It is not alone for there are *unlimited brother and sister universes as well in this material corner of existence.

The material conglomerate of material universes is finite as well.

Outside of this material conglomerate of universes is the spiritual realm which is infinite.

The spiritual realm is where we came from and where we should return to be eternally happy without suffering.

This material universe is not our real home because we all have to die here and take re-birth and suffer continually over and over.

Religion is suppose to teach us how to return home back to Godhead - but if the religion is fabricated and has no knowledge we will not develop love for God and return home.

Love of God can only truly develop if we have correct knowledge of God and the bonafide potent process in which to achieve this love of God..

Originally posted by whodey
The question here involves the issue of time. Time is simply a property of the material universe. So it stands to reason that when the material universe was created, ie the Big Bang, time was created. God existed before the material universe and the subsequent creation of time. Before this point, his existence is an unknown in a demension unfathomable bec ...[text shortened]... demension, time did not exist, God simply IS. Therefore, to ask who created God is nonsensical.

You may have something there. It looks like we can end the discussion
on that note, unless someone has an objection.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You may have something there. It looks like we can end the discussion
on that note, unless someone has an objection.

Aye. Until next time...

Originally posted by googlefudge
If god has existed for an infinite amount of time he will have done everything
he can do an infinite number of times.

So anything he hasn't already done he can't do.


EDIT: This of course means that a god that has existed (and will exist) for ever will have not
only have created an infinite number of other universes, but he will have created an ...[text shortened]... ial chosen people" line.


This is an inescapable conclusion if god has existed forever.

If God exists then he surely doesn't have to do anything you say.


This is is an inescapable conclusion whether or not God has existed forever.

You're logic is flawed. What would "make" God do something or not do something?

Originally posted by tomtom232
If God exists then he surely doesn't have to do anything you say.


This is is an inescapable conclusion whether or not God has existed forever.

You're logic is flawed. What would "make" God do something or not do something?

Read what whodey said so we can end this discussion.

Originally posted by whodey
The question here involves the issue of time. Time is simply a property of the material universe. So it stands to reason that when the material universe was created, ie the Big Bang, time was created. God existed before the material universe and the subsequent creation of time. Before this point, his existence is an unknown in a demension unfathomable bec ...[text shortened]... demension, time did not exist, God simply IS. Therefore, to ask who created God is nonsensical.

This isn't an issue of time it is an issue of existence.

If God existed then there was existence.

It stands to reason if something exists then something else can also exist.

This means that if God exists as a first cause the problem becomes answering the question of what created God.

My solution is that God isn't a first cause but an infinite cause.

Originally posted by tomtom232
This isn't an issue of time it is an issue of existence.

If God existed then there was existence.

It stands to reason if something exists then something else can also exist.

This means that if God exists as a first cause the problem becomes answering the question of what created God.

My solution is that God isn't a first cause but an infinite cause.

Isn't your solution the same thing as the Hindu spiritualism position of calling God as Swayambhu or self creator ?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Isn't your solution the same thing as the Hindu spiritualism position of calling God as Swayambhu or self creator ?

I wouldn't know. I haven't read anything about the Hindu spiritual philosophy... It just makes sense.

Originally posted by tomtom232
If God exists then he surely doesn't have to do anything you say.


This is is an inescapable conclusion whether or not God has existed forever.

You're logic is flawed. What would "make" God do something or not do something?

I don't think you understand how long for ever is.....

It doesn't matter how unlikely it is for god to do a particular thing, or how rare it is he does it.

He could only do something once every googleplex to the power googleplex years and he would
still have done it an infinite number of times.

If it's possible for god to do something and he's been around for ever then he will have done that
thing an infinite number of times.

And for god to be in any way plausible he must comply with the laws of logic.

Which means there are some things he can and can't do.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I don't think you understand how long for ever is.....

It doesn't matter how unlikely it is for god to do a particular thing, or how rare it is he does it.

He could only do something once every googleplex to the power googleplex years and he would
still have done it an infinite number of times.

If it's possible for god to do something and he's ...[text shortened]... st comply with the laws of logic.

Which means there are some things he can and can't do.

You may have missed my response to this but what you say isn't necessarily true:

If god has existed for an infinite amount of time he will have done everything
he can do an infinite number of times.
I have taken issue with a number of people on this point, it's difficult to say what, in a hypothetical sense, would be the cardinality of the infinite number of things a god or anything else could supposedly do and then say this is equal to the cardinality of infinity as it relates to time. As an example supposing we say that the size of infinity for time is aleph-zero (i.e. size of the integers or rationals, or multidimensional rationals even), taking the powerset of this set is a bigger infinity (size of the reals), the powerset of that is bigger still, and so on...

As such I strongly disagree that given infinite time one must eventually do all things possible infinitely many times.

Originally posted by Agerg
You may have missed my response to this but what you say isn't necessarily true:

[b]If god has existed for an infinite amount of time he will have done everything
he can do an infinite number of times.
I have taken issue with a number of people on this point, it's difficult to say what, in a hypothetical sense, would be the cardinality of the infini ...[text shortened]... ree that given infinite time one must eventually do all things possible infinitely many times.[/b]

You are presuming of course that there are an infinite (of any cardinality) number of things god can do.

I was limiting god to a finite (if fantastically large) set of actions.

However if you ARE making god infinite in his actions... Why are you limiting god to only doing one thing, or even
a finite number of things at once?

You also presume a granularity of whatever 'god' uses for time. (which makes scientific sense but we are
talking about god in whatever set of dimensions he lives in)

And so I rebut the argument that god can only perform first cardinal numbers of actions.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I don't think you understand how long for ever is.....

It doesn't matter how unlikely it is for god to do a particular thing, or how rare it is he does it.

He could only do something once every googleplex to the power googleplex years and he would
still have done it an infinite number of times.

If it's possible for god to do something and he's ...[text shortened]... st comply with the laws of logic.

Which means there are some things he can and can't do.

I understand the concept of forever just fine. You just don't get the concept of 0.

If God can do anything he can also do nothing. If God can do nothing once he can do it infinitely if he chooses which means he can do something once if he chooses and then proceed to do nothing for the rest of infinity.