Spirituality
09 Nov 13
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10 Nov 13
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes, so far..
So far we said:
1. Salvation /eternal life is a gift of God, given through grace and made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
2. Although a gift Paul summarised the process of obtaining eternal life :
".. confess with thy mouth" and
".. believe in thine heart ... "
3. Those two are really conditions or requirements for ...[text shortened]... heart and whether or not he really believes in his heart.
Is that what you agree with so far?
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10 Nov 13
The Bible presents salvation as a life transforming experience. Change is one of the distinguishing characteristics of a true believer. Yet, failure to understand that this change takes place in the spirit first, and then is reflected in our outward appearance through our thoughts and actions in direct proportion to the way we renew our minds, causes much confusion.
This change has to take place in our born-again spirit first. Why is that? If you were fat before you got saved, you will be fat after you get saved, unless you go on a weight loss program. Your body doesn't instantly change and neither does your soul or mind.
It is your spirit that is instantly changed at salvation. It is perfect (Heb. 12:23). It cannot sin (1 Jn. 3:9). Everything that is true of Jesus is true of our born-again spirit. Your spiritual salvation is complete. At salvation, you receive the same spirit that you will have throughout all eternity. It will not have to be changed or cleansed again. It is sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13) and therefore, is sanctified and perfected forever (Heb. 10:10, 14; 12:23).
For the remainder of our Christian life, we must not try to obtain faith, joy or love from God, but rather release what we already have in our spirits (Gal. 5:22-23) into our soul and body. Failure to understand this has caused some people to despair when they don't see sufficient change in their life after coming to the Lord for salvation. It must be understood that the change is internal in our spirit and the outward change will take place as we renew our minds through God's Word.
http://www.awmi.net/bible
10 Nov 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo the question is by what or whose authority do preachers tell the congregation that they are saved? Is it not God who knows the hearts. God knows whether or not the Holy Spirit has transformed the believer?
The Bible presents salvation as a life transforming experience. Change is one of the distinguishing characteristics of a true believer. Yet, failure to understand that this change takes place in the spirit first, and then is reflected in our outward appearance through our thoughts and actions in direct proportion to the way we renew our minds, causes muc ...[text shortened]... ward change will take place as we renew our minds through God's Word.
http://www.awmi.net/bible
I see you are starting to use the 'true' believer loophole.
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10 Nov 13
Originally posted by Rajk999Where did I ever say the preacher can know what is in a heart?
So the question is by what or whose authority do preachers tell the congregation that they are saved? Is it not God who knows the hearts. God knows whether or not the Holy Spirit has transformed the believer?
I see you are starting to use the 'true' believer loophole.
10 Nov 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterI notice earlier you said this :
Where did I ever say the preacher can know what is in a heart?
..But regardless of what a preacher thinks, or us for that matter, only God knows what is in the heart. I thought we assumed that these people had already believed in their heart and made Jesus Lord.
These people could not lose their salvation.
Now I never assume that I know who believes in their heart, but it is obvious that many do around here. Why then do so many claim that born again Christians are saved eternally? Obviously making such a claim is similar to saying that they know people's hearts. And by the way you agree with these people so you are really part of the group.
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10 Nov 13
Originally posted by Rajk999No, no, no, I am using what the bible says. IF a person IS born again and has been sealed with holy spirit, that person cannot lose their salvation.
I notice earlier you said this :
..But regardless of what a preacher thinks, or us for that matter, only God knows what is in the heart. I thought we assumed that these people had already believed in their heart and made Jesus Lord.
These people could not lose their salvation.
Now I never assume that I know who believes in their heart, but it ...[text shortened]... people's hearts. And by the way you agree with these people so you are really part of the group.
I never said a specific person. I am talking about John Doe here.
I know what is in my heart, therefore I can only speak for myself. But as long as you mention this, Jesus did say you would know them by their fruit. So you could have a pretty good idea of who is and who is not saved.
You can also operate spiritual manifestations like "discerning of spirits" (if God so chooses to reveal that to you), you can hear a person speaking in tongues, but here again it would be debatable, since you would not understand the language.
10 Nov 13
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterOk thats good... ' If a person is born again'. Now the point at which the person is born again is where or when :
No, no, no, I am using what the bible says. IF a person IS born again and has been sealed with holy spirit, that person cannot lose their salvation.
I never said a specific person. I am talking about John Doe here.
I know what is in my heart, therefore I can only speak for myself. But as long as you mention this, Jesus did say you would know them by ...[text shortened]... g in tongues, but here again it would be debatable, since you would not understand the language.
- when they accept Christ with their mouth
- when they believe in their heart
- when God instills the Holy Spirit in them?
Which is it?
How can anyone know?
Personally would resist the temptation to look at someones 'fruits' and make a judgement call about them. Many appear to be righteous but within they are evil. Some appear to be ordinary but within they are loving and humble. We cannot know who is of God simply by their deeds unless we know them thoroughly. I would leave that to God. Thats just me.
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10 Nov 13
Originally posted by Rajk999- when they believe in their heart
Ok thats good... ' If a person is born again'. Now the point at which the person is born again is where or when :
- when they accept Christ with their mouth
- when they believe in their heart
- when God instills the Holy Spirit in them?
Which is it?
How can anyone know?
Personally would resist the temptation to look at someones 'fruits' and make a ...[text shortened]... simply by their deeds unless we know them thoroughly. I would leave that to God. Thats just me.
- when God instills the Holy Spirit in them?
When they believe in their heart, God is faithful, is he not? So why would they not receive holy spirit when they believe in their heart?
10 Nov 13
What do I owe god?
It would help if I knew which one. If it's that Jesus character, he borrowed a tenner from me last week so a god owes me something. It has always puzzled me why a biblical character drinks in the same pub as me. And why does he work in the same place? I reckon he's been demoted because his water into wine skills are sadly lacking, hence the need to borrow said tenner.
10 Nov 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes. However the point at which that happens is not known to man. You just said that yourself. That event is between God and the believer.
[b]- when they believe in their heart
- when God instills the Holy Spirit in them?
When they believe in their heart, God is faithful, is he not? So why would they not receive holy spirit when they believe in their heart?[/b]
In fact it does not happen in every case. There are some who accept Christ with their mouth but their heart is far from him. In that case the person is not born again. Again nobody knows this.
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11 Nov 13
Originally posted by Rajk999I agree, it is not just saying it. But you have changed from your original position. All along I have said that someone who believes from the heart is born again and cannot lose that salvation. I never said it was just saying something.
Yes. However the point at which that happens is not known to man. You just said that yourself. That event is between God and the believer.
In fact it does not happen in every case. There are some who accept Christ with their mouth but their heart is far from him. In that case the person is not born again. Again nobody knows this.
11 Nov 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterMaybe you said that but there are two things to consider:
I agree, it is not just saying it. But you have changed from your original position. All along I have said that someone who believes from the heart is born again and cannot lose that salvation. I never said it was just saying something.
- that you do not know who believes from the heart, only God does
- that there is a special meaning attached to the expression 'believing from the heart'. Its not just saying 'Yes I believe from the heart'. there is a lot more to it.
11 Nov 13
Originally posted by KeplerYou seem unable to distinguish an imposter from the real thing.
What do I owe god?
It would help if I knew which one. If it's that Jesus character, he borrowed a tenner from me last week so a god owes me something. It has always puzzled me why a biblical character drinks in the same pub as me. And why does he work in the same place? I reckon he's been demoted because his water into wine skills are sadly lacking, hence the need to borrow said tenner.
The Instructor
12 Nov 13
Originally posted by KellyJayYour views are troubling. You often exude such a self-loathing view of human nature and yet you think our creator is beyond reproach. Are you consistent on this type of reasoning? If you went to the store and bought a watch that turned out to be defective, who (if anyone) would you blame for it?
I believe all of us are indebted to God, He created the universe we live in,
He holds it all together, He promotes and puts down, every good and
perfect gift comes from Him. He is a sure foundation and a present help!
Kelly
13 Nov 13
Originally posted by LemonJelloI believe God is perfect and I can see we are not. If you don't think we
Your views are troubling. You often exude such a self-loathing view of human nature and yet you think our creator is beyond reproach. Are you consistent on this type of reasoning? If you went to the store and bought a watch that turned out to be defective, who (if anyone) would you blame for it?
are twisted then why do we see all the rapes, murders, lying, stealing,
and all around hateful actions people do with other people? So those are
the constants in this world, and I believe this break was at the fall of man.
Kelly