13 Nov 07
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIt is my contention that no one places their faith in an unjustified belief. For example, I don't know very many people beyond the age of 5 that believe in the tooth ferry. However, there are varying levels of need to justify ones faith than there are for others. For example, some people are more trusting of other people as a rule than others. For some there needs to be next to no justification for trusting another person as where others will NEVER trust another person for a desried outcome no matter the justification present for doing so.
Is that really what you denote by the term 'faith'? What you describe is nothing more than a particular sort of justified belief.
13 Nov 07
Originally posted by whodeyJust out of interest, what's the tooth ferry?
It is my contention that no one places their faith in an unjustified belief. For example, I don't know very many people beyond the age of 5 that believe in the tooth ferry. However, there are varying levels of need to justify ones faith than there are for others. For example, some people are more trusting of other people as a rule than others. For some th ...[text shortened]... ER trust another person for a desried outcome no matter the justification present for doing so.
Is that the boat that takes all the teeth to some new and wonderous land?
(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
13 Nov 07
There are people I rely on and trust.
My wife is a nice example. I rely on her and trust her completely.
Do I have faith in her? That is meaningless to me. Faith to me suggests a belief in something that I can't see or feel or hear or ... you get my drift. Now I have no need to believe in my wife in this sense. She exists in front of me. So why would I have need of faith in her?
13 Nov 07
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyCould you please desist in using the term 'faith' until you state what it is that you are using it to denote? It doesn't make sense to have a discussion about a term whose meaning is known only to you. How can anybody who doesn't know what you mean by 'faith' evaluate your contention? Are you using it synonymously with 'trust'?
It is my contention that no one places their faith in an unjustified belief.
13 Nov 07
Originally posted by whodeyThis conversation will be fruitless until you actually make it clear what you mean by 'faith'. My experience has been that there are any number of ways that term is taken, and they can diverge greatly. I try to avoid the term, but when I do use it I use it as an epistemic pejorative. Regardless of how I use it, what do you mean by the term here, specifically?
Just out of curiosity, what do you place your faith in? Have you ever thought about it? Under what conditions do you feel compelled to place your faith in something? Under what conditions do you feel compelled not to place your faith in something?
14 Nov 07
4 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterAdhering to an unjustified belief is always the worst bet.
Justify your belief that unjustified belief is pointless.
Suppose you deliberate on some proposition A.
If under your available information A is more likely to be true than false, then believing A is justified and believing Not-A is not justified.
If under your available information A is more likely to be false than true, then believing Not-A is justified and believing A is not justified.
If you hold unjustified beliefs, you expect them to be false on average, since each is more likely to be false than true.
If you hold justified beliefs, you expect them to be true on average, since each is more likely to be true than false.
Thus, if you prefer to have beliefs that are true, then it is pointless to hold unjustified beliefs.
However, if there is some metric that holds greater importance to you than having true beliefs --- for example, having beliefs that make you feel hopeful or optimistic --- then holding unjustified beliefs may not be pointless. But then, you'd really be defeating the purpose of beliefs in the first place.
14 Nov 07
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI guess you could argue that because feeling hopeful or optimistic is a good thing, holding beliefs which make you feel that way is justified. I suppose I should clarify my own position in terms of knowledge. When I refer to justified beliefs they are beliefs about what I know to be true or false, not aesthetic judgements or any other sort from which justification is not a matter of fact.
Adhering to an unjustified belief is always the worst bet.
Suppose you deliberate on some proposition A.
If under your available information A is more likely to be true than false, then believing A is justified and believing Not-A is not justified.
If under your available information A is more likely to be false than true, then believing Not-A ...[text shortened]... t be pointless. But then, you'd really be defeating the purpose of beliefs in the first place.
14 Nov 07
Dictionary:
1: allegiance to duty or a person LOYALTY 2: Belief and trust in God
3: complete trust 4: a system of religious beliefs
So I would say according to those above most all have some kind of faith in something. Does not have to be God but something. I think most people assign a religious answer to faith however.
Manny
14 Nov 07
Originally posted by menace71Thanks for doing my dirty work for me. However, my dictionary says this:
Dictionary:
1: allegiance to duty or a person LOYALTY 2: Belief and trust in God
3: complete trust 4: a system of religious beliefs
So I would say according to those above most all have some kind of faith in something. Does not have to be God but something. I think most people assign a religious answer to faith however.
Manny
1. a) A confident belief, trust
b) belief in God; religious conviction
2. Loyalty, allegence
3. A system of religious beliefs.
How are these for definitions for everyone? Are these definitions acceptable?
14 Nov 07
3 edits
Originally posted by amannionOK so the definitions that I have listed previously would include the term trust. So tell us, at what point did you trust your wife? What evidence was provided for you to do so? Also, even though you must have evidence for being able to trust her, is such evidence proof that you can trust her? And perhaps most importantly of all, does she believe in the tooth ferry? 😛
There are people I rely on and trust.
My wife is a nice example. I rely on her and trust her completely.
Do I have faith in her? That is meaningless to me. Faith to me suggests a belief in something that I can't see or feel or hear or ... you get my drift. Now I have no need to believe in my wife in this sense. She exists in front of me. So why would I have need of faith in her?