What is heaven then?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I see heaven as that place where we all have the peace that passes all understanding, which makes it a place to look forward to after our earthly lives are over.

But what is peace without turmoil?

Even a rock is in motion over time, it erodes and shuffles about.

The universe that we live in teaches us one thing for sure.
It is impossible for 'nothing' as us humans know it to exist.

Everything has a harmony. So in heaven there must be harmony
too. For every good there must be a bad.

So what distuinguishes heaven from hell?

Given a choice between biblical heaven or hell. I would have to choose
hell. This is my reasoning.

Heaven offers peace but does not say whether I will impart my memory.
I want more than peace, I want harmony. I consider eternal life in
peace with an intact memory excruciating.

Hell offers eternal torment. We get used to torment after a while as
we do anything. So to keep me in torment, the devil would have to
scrub my memory every so often.

I prefer the latter of the two solutions.

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
I prefer the latter of the two solutions.

God in his infinite wisdom has come up with the perfect solution. He will send everyone to the exact same place and for some it will be heaven, but for others (like you) it will be hell. 🙂

I am just joking, I do get your point. It is interesting how many Christians would actually agree with you. Despite telling us how fantastic heaven will be, I don't see too many in a hurry to get there. Many will admit that this life has its merits.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes i am sorry, it was late, i was rather vague, so i shall try to be clear and concise this morning although i did not sleep very well, anyhow, the passage.

scriptures indicate that the physical earth will remain forever.

A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite. - Ecclesiastes 1:4
...[text shortened]... .e. 'the heavens', and the violent world which is governed i.e., 'the earth'. is it not so?

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Yes i am sorry, it was late, i was rather vague, so i shall try to be clear and concise this morning although i did not sleep very well, anyhow, the passage.

scriptures indicate that the physical earth will remain forever.

.... Ecclesiastes 1:4

.... - Psalm 37:29

etc etc
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None of this renders the following not true:

1.) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed awayt, and the sea was not more. (Rev. 21:1)

Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalm 37:29 cannot mean that the Apostle John, writing the final word of the New Testament and indeed the final word of the entire Bible, is mistaken or is not telling the truth.

In the final and climactic revelation of the entire 66 books of the Bible John saw "a new heaven and a new earth because the first heaven and the first earth PASSED AWAY." (Rev. 21:1 my emphasis)

The final word is usually the most important word. So I intend to receive John's vision as the conclusion and consumation of God's word.

Do you believe that there will be a new heaven and a new earth because the first heaven and the first earth will pass away? Or do you not believe that ?


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the reference to Noah and the immediate context of 2 Peter

Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing you, in which, as in my first one, I am arousing your clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder, that you should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creations beginning.”

For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.

thus Peter makes the analogy with the heavens and earth of old, which were destroyed (not the literal heaven nor the literal earth, but the world filled with violence, the violent individuals) and makes a correlation with the heavens and earth today (also referring to individuals, not the literal heavens and earth, for he qualifies this when he makes the statement, ungodly men), so we can therefore conclude that the heavens and earth are symbolic of the political system which governs i.e. 'the heavens', and the violent world which is governed i.e., 'the earth'. is it not so?
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I think you are setting up a false dichotomy. You are saying that the destruction of Noah's time has to be EITHER the physical earth OR the political system.

First of all there was really no political system unless we call anarchy a political system. This was before the advent of human government. Men walked as true libertarians answering really only to their own consciences. This was an anarchy. And because the sin nature of man led it to an earth filled with violence, after the flood God seems to have instituted human government, ie, ideally those who do follow the God given conscience would govern society. (I say ideally). Compare Genesis 9:6 with Genesis 4:14,15.

But there is a more important point here. Though you are correct to point out that Noah's flood was God's judgment upon the society of sinners ( Gen. 6:13) notice the words. God said He would destroy the people WITH the earth -

"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and now I am about to destroy them WITH THE EARTH" (Gen. 6:13 my emphasis)

So you see the judgment upon the society and its "government" as you speak was carried out by means of a judgment against their environment. All but Noah and his family were destroyed "with the earth".

Afterwards n God's covenant with Noah and his descendents God promises that He will no longer use a flood to destroy all of human society or all the EARTH too:

"And I establish My covenant with you, that never again will all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again will there be a flood to destroy THE EARTH." (Gen. 9:11)

So Peter's comparison of the end of the age with Noah's flood includes not only judgment upon sinners and their government but their physical earth as an environment also.

Since you are fond of the OT passages to clarify the NT you should also consider Isaiah's word:

"For as the NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH, which I make, Remain before Me, declares Jehovah, So will your seed and your name remain" (Isaiah 66:22)

Isn't this what John saw, a new heaven and a new earth? See also Isaiah 65:17; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev:21:1

The fire will purge and cleanse to environment of the previous sinful age. And God will establish new heavens and a new earth. The physics of this may not be totally clear to me. But the physical implications are and cannot be easily allegorically dismissed as you have attempted to do.

Originally posted by jaywill
In the final and climactic revelation of the entire 66 books of the Bible ....

I always find it interesting whenever I see people so convinced that the Bible is one single document practically dictated by God. It just doesn't make sense. How do you deal with all the other books that are not part of your favorite 66? How do you deal with translation differences etc? I just find it so amazing that so many reasonably sane and intelligent people can somehow continue to maintain such ridiculously illogical beliefs.

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
But what is peace without turmoil?

Even a rock is in motion over time, it erodes and shuffles about.

The universe that we live in teaches us one thing for sure.
It is impossible for 'nothing' as us humans know it to exist.

Everything has a harmony. So in heaven there must be harmony
too. For every good there must be a bad.

So what distuinguish ...[text shortened]... l would have to
scrub my memory every so often.

I prefer the latter of the two solutions.

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Heaven offers peace but does not say whether I will impart my memory.
I want more than peace, I want harmony. I consider eternal life in
peace with an intact memory excruciating.
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Next time you peruse through the Bible consider what these words might mean.

"For I am now creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come up in the heart. But rejoice and exult forever in what I create..." (Isaiah 65:17)

Seems to me that the former things not coming up in the heart and no longer being remembered should deal with your complaint.

You'd better come up with another clever excuse to want to go to hell forever. The Bible seems to render this fear of yours unnecessary.

Originally posted by jaywill
If the Apostle Peter said that the believers are expecting new heavens and new earth, wouldn't that mean that in the eternal age an earthly life continues?

When we turn to our regenerated spirit, in a very real sense we enter into that age to come. Part of our being is already in heaven if we are born again.

I said that if we are born again, we shou ...[text shortened]... to enjoy the rapturee and temporary stay in heaven at the end of this church age.

I wasn't trying to say that peace shouldn't be sought while we are alive; I was just trying to answer the question in 25 words or less.

As for the rest of your post, I found it interesting until the last 2 paragraphs, as I'm not a dispensationalist.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I wasn't trying to say that peace shouldn't be sought while we are alive; I was just trying to answer the question in 25 words or less.

As for the rest of your post, I found it interesting until the last 2 paragraphs, as I'm not a dispensationalist.

I tend to be verbose. Please do not take it personally.

Of course I do not feel that you are not interested in the peace of Christ here and now today, if you are a Christian.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I wasn't trying to say that peace shouldn't be sought while we are alive; I was just trying to answer the question in 25 words or less.

As for the rest of your post, I found it interesting until the last 2 paragraphs, as I'm not a dispensationalist.

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As for the rest of your post, I found it interesting until the last 2 paragraphs, as I'm not a dispensationalist.
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I had to look over the last two paragraphs to see what it is which you find overtly "dispensational".

I suppose that some kind of warning lights go off for you because I mentioned the rapture or something.

Regardless, as the Christian walks on the earth he should remember that he is seated with Christ in the heavens spiritually in Ephesians. And he is also exhorted to come forward to the throne of grace in Hebrews. So there must be an inward connection of the believer to heaven. And in that connection the Christian must learn to live - dispensationist or no dispensationalist.

Don't you agree?

" ... as He is so are we in this world" (1 John 4:17)

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
As for the rest of your post, I found it interesting until the last 2 paragraphs, as I'm not a dispensationalist.
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I had to look over the last two paragraphs to see what it is which you find overtly "dispensational".

I suppose that some kind of warning lights ...[text shortened]... t.

Don't you agree?

" ... as He is so are we in this world" (1 John 4:17)[/b]

"Rapture" and "church age" are two terms that often make me jump to the conclusion that the speaker is a dispensationalist. I shouldn't, and if you're not, I apologize.
As for the passages you cite, I don't deal much with those that try to have humans (Christians) in heaven and on earth at the same time--I think they must be speaking metaphorically, or maybe it's just a passage I'll never understand. I believe we are in one place in the space-time continuum---right here on this planet, until our earthly demise. Then, we go to heaven and get to be with God.
Simplistic? Yes. But it works for me.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
"Rapture" and "church age" are two terms that often make me jump to the conclusion that the speaker is a dispensationalist. I shouldn't, and if you're not, I apologize.
As for the passages you cite, I don't deal much with those that try to have humans (Christians) in heaven and on earth at the same time--I think they must be speaking metaphorically, or m hen, we go to heaven and get to be with God.
Simplistic? Yes. But it works for me.

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"Rapture" and "church age" are two terms that often make me jump to the conclusion that the speaker is a dispensationalist.
I shouldn't, and if you're not, I apologize.
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In that the phrases "church age" and "rapture" may not be explicitly used in scripture I sympathize with you, that far.

But I don't mind if you call me a dispensationalist because I do take my understanding of different ages or dispensations from essentially Brethren theology. And they were dispensationalists, ie. J N Darby.

"Rapture" is a word meaning a kind of esctasy. I do also see a catching away of the watchful believers from the earth to the third heavens at the end of the church age. But I believe in what in some circles is called "Selective Rapture." I feel comfortable with the validity of such an understanding and do not mind is others see things differently.

Tell me, what do you feel about this passage, as far as the location of the Lord Jesus is concerned:

"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." (John 3:13)

It is kind of puzzling to exactly locate where He is there. Why do you think Jesus said that at that moment He was the Son of Man "who is in heaven?"

I think it is kind of divine and mystical as to exactly where He was when He spoke those words.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===============================
"Rapture" and "church age" are two terms that often make me jump to the conclusion that the speaker is a dispensationalist.
I shouldn't, and if you're not, I apologize.
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In that the phrases "church age" and "rapture" may not be explicitly used in scripture I sympathize w ...[text shortened]... of divine and mystical as to exactly where He was when He spoke those words.[/b]

I think Jesus, being God, can be in more than one place at the same time. Thus He can be in heaven, and in my living room, and in the local church, in the hearts of believers everywhere, etc. You're right--it's supernatural, mystical, and unexplainable in human terms.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I think Jesus, being God, can be in more than one place at the same time. Thus He can be in heaven, and in my living room, and in the local church, in the hearts of believers everywhere, etc. You're right--it's supernatural, mystical, and unexplainable in human terms.

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I think Jesus, being God, can be in more than one place at the same time. Thus He can be in heaven, and in my living room, and in the local church, in the hearts of believers everywhere, etc. You're right--it's supernatural, mystical, and unexplainable in human terms.
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A good answer. Now as people who have been regenerated and are "one spirit with the Lord" (1 Cor. 6:7) to some degree the Christians experiences the same thing.

Paul tells the Christians to set their minds on the things which are above where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God." (Col. 3:2)

So the believer is to set her mind on Christ and the heavenly things. To do this is to have "the mind set on the spirit" (Romans 8:6)

One way of saying live in the heavens is to say "set you mind on the things which are above where Christ is ..." The other way the New Testament puts it is for us the set the mind on the spirit (Rom.8:6). For Christ is in the heavens (Rom. 8:34) and Christ is also simultaneously in us, ie. in our regenerated human spirit - (Rom. 8:10)

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) Since the Christ who is in the heavens is also one spirit with His believers on the earth, the Lord is with our spirit:

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)

Part of our being is already in heaven for Christ in us is in heaven. And Christ is our life. So Paul says that our life is hid with Christ in God, and God and Christ are in heaven.

"For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be nanifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:3,4)

In some parellel sense then the believers too, at least part of them, is in heaven already. When we turn our mind to set it upon our regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is, we are in the heavenly atmosphere. We are then living on the earth but in the kingdom of the heavens meaning the kingdom, the origin of which is from heaven and out of heaven.

This connection of the Christians to heaven is symbolized in Jesus being the ladder joining the heavens to the earth:

"And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." (John 1:51)

The Son of Man joins earth to heaven. He joins the regenerated spirit of man to Himself in the heavens. Therefore Paul says that "our citizenship is in the heavens" or "our commonwealth is in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." (Phil. 3:20)

Christ our life (as Christians) is in our spirit and at the right hand of God in the third heavens. So Christ Himself joins a part of our being to heaven. And in this connection, in this realm the Christian must learn to daily walk and live.

He has blessed the believers "with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ" (Eph. 1:3). And in resurrection He has raised us up to sit together with Him in the heavens:

"And raised us up together with Him and seated us together with Him in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:5)

Part of the believer in Christ is therefore really in heaven already. This probably parellels His statement that as He was one with His Father, He was the Son of Man in the heavens (John 3:13)[/b]

Praise the Lord we Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens!

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==========================================
your soul that god created will go your body will not. conscious your soul will be with others in both camps one will be happy and content, the oposite is nashing of teeth and wailing.
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This is not an adaquate concept of salvation in the Bible.

If you s new heavens in which righteousness dwells is permanent unto eternity.[/b]

salvation of the soul will be happy and content.
Also from the dust you were formed and to dust you shall return but the soul/spirit was formed by god and to god you shall return for judgment.
[b] who is blamless/// none but the lord
The body dies not the soul/spirit the body is weak but not the spirit, would they both be of the lord then they would be transfigured into the etrnal life.
no clothing will as adam found out he was naked before god so we will be like the animals no shame
and sorry i do not get on line so much to reply earlier

Originally posted by stoker
salvation of the soul will be happy and content.
Also from the dust you were formed and to dust you shall return but the soul/spirit was formed by god and to god you shall return for judgment.
[b] who is blamless/// none but the lord
The body dies not the soul/spirit the body is weak but not the spirit, would they both be of the lord then they would be ...[text shortened]... so we will be like the animals no shame
and sorry i do not get on line so much to reply earlier

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salvation of the soul will be happy and content.
Also from the dust you were formed and to dust you shall return but the soul/spirit was formed by god and to god you shall return for judgment.
who is blamless/// none but the lord
The body dies not the soul/spirit the body is weak but not the spirit, would they both be of the lord then they would be transfigured into the etrnal life.
no clothing will as adam found out he was naked before god so we will be like the animals no shame
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There are three parts to man's being - the spirit, the soul, and the body.

There are three divine matters related to the salvation of each of the three parts:

For the spirit of man there is regeneration.
For the soul of man there is transformation.
For the body of man there is transfiguration.

The salvation of the spirit is to be born again - regenerated.
The salvation of the soul is not as instantaneous. It requires a long time. This salvation of the soul is by denying the soul life and enjoying Christ's within. He who loses his soul for the sake of the Lord Jesus will save his soul. He who saves his soul life will lose it. This denying of the independent and fallen soul life and enjoying Christ within instead causes the transformation of the soul. And that transformation is a salvation.

That transformation of the soul will cause the transformed one to enjoy the reward of entering into the joy of the Lord in the coming millennial kingdom. He will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. This is a salvation to the soul. This is the reward for denying the old self and taking Christ.

The third aspect is instantaneous. That is the transfiguration of the body in the twinkling of an eye.

Unfortunately I have been called away and cannot continue right now.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=======================================
I think Jesus, being God, can be in more than one place at the same time. Thus He can be in heaven, and in my living room, and in the local church, in the hearts of believers everywhere, etc. You're right--it's supernatural, mystical, and unexplainable in human terms.
============================================[ ...[text shortened]...
Praise the Lord we Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens!

I find Paul somewhat difficult (which I know makes me part of a majority 🙂 ), but his tendency to mix tenses, not only in the same section but sometimes the same sentence, is confusing to me. I know he's the one who said "absent from the body, persent with the Lord", but if we are already "present with the Lord", then the comfort of the thought loses something. At least it does to me.