What is more important...

Originally posted by @divegeester
What you do, or what you believe?


(In the broadest trans-religious/ideology sense)

What you Do.
Believing should lead to doing
Doing to perfection... eventually.

Failure to do means belief is worthless

Originally posted by @fmf
Give examples of it. I think your are being untruthful or perhaps paranoid. Saying it is "self-evident" or that I have "blindness" to it is just evasion. You're making this up. Cite an example of me "pushing back" against any Christian wanting to talk about 'walking the walk'.

From a single thread where suzianne mentioned she would be working with the homeless.

FMF, the self-appointed spokesman for rajk999:

“Rajk999 has never asked people here what 'good works' they do. Nor has he answered questions about what 'good works' he does. The debate has always been about what the correct doctrine is with regard to doing what Jesus commands his followers to do ~ and not about revealing personal information about what posters do.”

“The debate is about correct doctrine and whether or not it stipulates that Christians must obey Christ's commandments or whether it is enough for them to talk about their "faith", no need to actively obey Jesus [that will apparently just happen automatically], and then declare themselves "saved", and insist that "God" can't un-save anyone who has declared themselves "saved" because 'that would make God a liar' etc. etc. I kid you not. THAT is the "mouth worship" doctrine that Rajk999 stands up to and you don't.”

“I am responding to a post of yours in which you were pitting yourself against a fellow follower-of-Christ Rajk999 but doing so based on a misconception of what it is he is debating here: doctrine and whether or not Christians are required to obey the commandments of Christ.”

“You seem to be locked in some kind of battle with Rajk999. What I have been telling you in my last few posts should help you see the mistake you are making about what the actual debate is. You responded to what Rajk999 has been arguing by telling everybody what 'good works' you are doing. You have the wrong end of the stick if you think Rajk999 thinks he requires that personal information from you. His debate here is about doctrine.”

“There is no "hypocrisy". He doesn't reveal personal information in order to make claims about works. And he doesn't ask people to reveal personal information in order to make claims about works. So there is no "hypocrisy". The debate is about what the correct doctrine is with regard to following the commandments of Jesus.”

“Suzianne does not understand what the word "hypocrisy" means.”

rajk999 finally speaks for himself:

“Neither does she know what doctrine is. She is anxious to talk about herself and thinks anyone cares two hoots about that.”

Originally posted by @suzianne
I've said this before, and you have laughably denied it, but again, when certain Christians have tried to demonstrate how they 'walk the walk', they were met by the biggest bunch of pushback ever seen on this forum, most of it coming from you.

I think you must be getting me mixed up with a different poster.

Originally posted by @fmf
I think you must be getting me mixed up with a different poster.

But apart from that nobody asks any Christian what they do to follow Christ commandments. The question has always been - is the following of commandments a critical requirement for entry into the Kingdom of God. Personal information is never part of my discussion and never will be.

Resorting to asking personal questions and offering personal information is a substitute for discussing the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles about which they are woefully uneducated.

Originally posted by @rajk999
But apart from that nobody asks any Christian what they do to follow Christ commandments. The question has always been - is the following of commandments a critical requirement for entry into the Kingdom of God. Personal information is never part of my discussion and never will be.

Resorting to asking personal questions and offering personal informatio ...[text shortened]... for discussing the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles about which they are woefully uneducated.

Suzianne uses the word "hypocrisy" incorrectly. She doesn't seem to quite understand what it means. And she's not the only one.

Originally posted by @fmf
Suzianne uses the word "hypocrisy" incorrectly. She doesn't seem to quite understand what it means. And she's not the only one.

I think they know that they are using it incorrectly. What else will they say when the words of Christ are condemning their pet doctrines. So Jesus said to do good works and live righteously otherwise there is no eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That is a fact that cannot be disputed., and that doctrine is not part of their beliefs.

Now since there is no counterargument for that point they instead focus on whether or not I am able to follow all of Christs commandments, whether I sin and how many good works one must do. Hence they incorrectly label me a hypocrite for repeating the words of Christ, as if my personal life changes the teachings of Christ.

They are truly a pathetic bunch of Christians.

Originally posted by @suzianne
I think in most honest people, they are linked.

Even though sometimes it is human nature to take the low road, if left to their own devices, without threat from others, most would have actions governed by their belief.

But here again, it appears to me that one should have a belief first, and then it is equipped to govern actions, never the other way ...[text shortened]... o work. Or a better place to live, or a better car, etc. Again, the belief drives the actions.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at with this post.

Originally posted by @rajk999
I think they know that they are using it incorrectly. What else will they say when the words of Christ are condemning their pet doctrines. So Jesus said to do good works and live righteously otherwise there is no eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That is a fact that cannot be disputed., and that doctrine is not part of their beliefs.

Now since there ...[text shortened]... personal life changes the teachings of Christ.

They are truly a pathetic bunch of Christians.

If someone beliefs differently to you on this doctrine and says so vociferously in this forum, and yet privately still does good works anyway, then are they still a “pathetic Christian”?

What is more important, what they believe or what they do?

Originally posted by @rajk999
I think they know that they are using it incorrectly. What else will they say when the words of Christ are condemning their pet doctrines. So Jesus said to do good works and live righteously otherwise there is no eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That is a fact that cannot be disputed., and that doctrine is not part of their beliefs.

Now since there ...[text shortened]... personal life changes the teachings of Christ.

They are truly a pathetic bunch of Christians.

They are truly a pathetic bunch of Christians.

As opposed to you, for example?

Originally posted by @divegeester
If someone beliefs differently to you on this doctrine and says so vociferously in this forum, and yet privately still does good works anyway, then are they still a “pathetic Christian”?

What is more important, what they believe or what they do?

So a man preaches faith only and OSAS. He publicly condemns what I say about good works but yet he continues to do good works in private. First of all I will continue to maintain that I know nothing of anyone's private lives and neither is that part of a discussion. Jesus will judge that man.

I only focus on what other Christians say here about the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, and the teaching is faith only. Paul said a whole lot more than faith... hence the disagreement. Yes it is a pathetic Christian who cannot see, understand and believe what Paul said in its entirety pertaining to eternal life.

Doing trumps believing.

I Cor 13, the greatest of faith, hope and charity is charity.
Charity = Doing.

Christians generally have failed to understand that.

Originally posted by @rajk999
So a man preaches faith only and OSAS. He publicly condemns what I say about good works but yet he continues to do good works in private. First of all I will continue to maintain that I know nothing of anyone's private lives and neither is that part of a discussion. Jesus will judge that man.

I only focus on what other Christians say here about the tea ...[text shortened]... nd charity is charity.
Charity = Doing.

Christians generally have failed to understand that.

<<Doing trumps believing.>>

Oh amigo. When will you ever learn the truth? How many times did Jesus Christ tell people to believe? How many times did he tell people their faith made them whole?

You cherry pick a verse out of context and then gnaw on it like a dog with a bone. Leave the bone alone, amigo. There’s better eats than that if you’ll just raise your gaze to the truth.