16 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayHi,
I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional? I'm not sure what you mean by this line of
reasoning, of course all spiritual gifts when the Holy Spirit moves
through a person are 'exceptional' and people believe because of the
works sake. Y then it stops, why the big
deal if it was not for the body of Christ?
Kelly
I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional?
I don't know what you are trying to say; I don't think I've mentioned Jesus' acts. Please explain.
I'm not sure what you mean by this line of reasoning, of course all spiritual gifts when the Holy Spirit moves through a person are 'exceptional' and people believe because of the works sake. Yet you’d have me to believe that God stopped, and I’m still waiting for the reasons why.
I think that for lack of arguments you're building here a "straw man"; I never said God stopped. What I said is that these supernatural Spiritual gifts would cease, as stated in I Corinthians 13.
The gifts are God's to impart, God did do it through people not just
Apostles, and your beliefs that you see an obvious purpose that also
includes the taking away of those gifts is something you have yet to
show scripturally.
Well, now I challenge you to show me scripturally that "God did do it through people not just Apostles."
You have said if I read between the lines so to speak I can see it because of this or that, but I'm not looking for something so vague, but a solid line of scripture telling us that this is the way it is/was.
Common sense and/or inference is important, ignore them at your will, and ignore the explicit passage as well (I Corinthians 13).
Now if, "...some things in the Bible are not expressly or explicitly
stated, ..." This is where you and I are parting company, I do not
see what you are promoting as a fact. I have agreed that that God
has moved by the laying on of hands, you and I both have agreed
that there are times God didn't do it that way. You call those
exceptions, I call that proof that it isn't just with the laying on of
hands that it occurs. If you are going to make a claim that it only
happens one way, and all the times it doesn't occur the way you claim
don't count because... I say we have a problem. There are just run of
the mill Christians that have gone to others and prayed in scripture
and with laying on of their hands God moved. You limit God by your
position, it isn't scriptural, why would anyone seek something only
a handful of people were going to aquire then it stops, why the big
deal if it was not for the body of Christ?
Kelly
I'm not limiting God and I believe in the power of prayer; however, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write that these gifts would cease. You have the free will to ignore it.
Remember, I've challenged you to show me scripturally that God did impart gifts "through people not just Apostles".
Regards
16 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferens
I'm not limiting God and I believe in the power of prayer; however, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write that these gifts would cease. You have the free will to ignore it.
I'm no defender of KellyJay theology, but I assure you he doesn't 'ignore' Scripture.
St Paul never indicates when these would cease. And, given that chapter 14 goes on to
discuss the use of tongues in the Christian community of Corinth, it's foolish to assume that
St Paul believed that tongues would only fall upon the Apostles. Indeed, unless you believe
that chapter 14, in a letter addressed specifically to the church of Corinth, only pertains to the
handful of apostles living there, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Remember, I've challenged you to show me scripturally that God did impart gifts "through people not just Apostles".
I suppose you inadvertently skipped my citation, so I will offer it again.
[Jesus] said to [the Disciples] 'Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every
creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be
condemned. These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive
out demons, they will speak new languages. They will pick up serpents with their hands,
and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and
they will recover.' (St Mark 16:15-18)
Nemesio
16 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioThe letter to the Corinthians is to be read as a whole, not just this or that chapter.
Originally posted by xpoferens
[b]I'm not limiting God and I believe in the power of prayer; however, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write that these gifts would cease. You have the free will to ignore it.
I'm no defender of KellyJay theology, but I assure you he doesn't 'ignore' Scripture.
St Paul never indicates when these would l lay hands on the sick, and
they will recover.'[/i] (St Mark 16:15-18)
Nemesio[/b]
From context you'll understand that Paul is urging that Church to look for the gifts that would last (chapter 13); in chapter 14 he adresses a problem the local Church had with these gifts.
I have a lot of work to do and have no time to write as much as I wanted, therefore, please allow me to quote from an article.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/didnt_paul_command_forbid_not_to_speak_in_tongues
# Chapter 12 catalogs the various spiritual gifts available, e.g., wisdom, knowledge, healings, prophecy, tongues (the ability to speak a foreign language supernaturally), interpretation of tongues (the divine gift of translation from one language to another), etc. (vv. 8-10). Further, this section argues that the gifts issue from a unified source, the sacred Godhead — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (vv. 4-5,11).
The implication clearly is this: those who possess these gifts must not act in an individualistic, adversarial fashion; rather, unity within the body of Christ must prevail (vv. 12ff).
# Based upon the foundation laid in Chapter 12, Chapter 13 argues that spiritual gifts must be exercised in love. A gift recklessly invoked, with no consideration for others, is nothing more than an irritating noise (vv. 1-3).
“Love” is defined with such an exhilarating range of qualities that, were these traits to be mastered, nothing but unity would result (vv. 4-7).
Finally, after such a magnificent discussion of “love” is concluded, this lofty attribute —so enduring in its nature— is set in contrast to the fact that the “spiritual gifts” (creating such a controversy among the Corinthian Christians) were but a temporary phenomena anyhow. They were merely piece-by-piece modes of conveying divine revelation, so that when the “perfect” (teleios—complete; see “perfect,” W.E. Vine, Expository Dictionary) arrived, i.e., the finished canon of Scriptures, these gifts were to cease.
# Finally, Chapter 14 reveals the sort of contentious disposition that marred the Corinthian church. The apostolic instruction sought to correct those evils by regulating the use of the spiritual gifts, particularly the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and the interpretation (translation) of tongues.
Sorry but I did not skip you citation of Mark and I commented on it.
Regarding your defense of KellyJay, using the same passage of Mark, I think you undestood both of us wrong.
KellyJay said:
"The gifts are God's to impart, God did do it through people not just
Apostles, and your beliefs that you see an obvious purpose that also
includes the taking away of those gifts is something you have yet to
show scripturally."
He said God imparted those gifts through people not just the apostles; I've challanged him to prove this.
He did not say "God imparted those gifts to other people not only the apostles".
These are different things.
Allow me to quote the 2 last verses in the Gospel of Mark.
Mark 16
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
The Word (the New Testament) and the preaching was confirmed by the signs that accompanied the disciples.
Those signs are not needed any longer, since the Word has been confirmed and is now perfect/complete (The Holy Bible).
Regards
16 Sep 06
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio, there is a big misunderstanding.
Originally posted by xpoferens
[b]I'm not limiting God and I believe in the power of prayer; however, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write that these gifts would cease. You have the free will to ignore it.
I'm no defender of KellyJay theology, but I assure you he doesn't 'ignore' Scripture.
St Paul never indicates when these would ...[text shortened]... l lay hands on the sick, and
they will recover.'[/i] (St Mark 16:15-18)
Nemesio[/b]
I've never said these gifts were only available to the apostles; what I said is that only after the laying of hands of the apostles, these gifts were bestowed (to the disciples). This was the rule.
Two exceptions occured but in two very specific situations; I've explained the reason why that happened, giving scriptures to support the claim.
Regards
17 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by xpoferensWell, now I challenge you to show me scripturally that "God did do it through people not just Apostles." [/b]
Hi,
[b]I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional?
I don't know what you are trying to say; I don't think I've mentioned Jesus' acts. Please explain.
I'm not sure what you mean by this line of reasoning, of course all spi t God did impart gifts "through people not just Apostles".
Regards
Acts 9
10 And a disciple, Ananias by name, was at Damascus [Forsooth some disciple was at Damascus, by name Ananias]. And the Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Lo! I, Lord.
11 And the Lord said to him, Rise thou, and go into a street that is called Rectus; and seek, in the house of Judas, Saul by name, of Tarsus. For lo! he prayeth;
12 and he saw a man, Ananias by name, entering and laying on him hands [entering and putting to him hands], that he receive sight.
13 And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard of many of this man, how great evil he did to thy saints in Jerusalem;
14 and this hath power of the princes of priests, to bind all men that call thy name to help.
15 And the Lord said to him, Go thou, for this is to me a vessel of choosing, that he bear my name before heathen men, and kings, and before the sons of Israel [that he bear my name before heathen men, and kings, and the sons of Israel].
16 For I shall show to him, how great things it behooveth him to suffer for my name.
17 And Ananias went, and entered into the house; and laid on him his hands, and said [and he putting to him the hands, said], Saul brother, the Lord Jesus sent me, that appeared to thee in the way, in which thou camest, that thou see, and be full-filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And at once as the scales felled from his eyes, he received sight [And anon there felled from his eyes as scales, and he received sight]. And he rose, and was baptized.
17 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by xpoferensI'm not limiting God and I believe in the power of prayer; however, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write that these gifts would cease. You have the free will to ignore it.
Hi,
[b]I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional?
I don't know what you are trying to say; I don't think I've mentioned Jesus' acts. Please explain.
I'm not sure what you mean by this line of reasoning, of course all spi t God did impart gifts "through people not just Apostles".
Regards
Remember, I've challenged you to show me scripturally that God did impart gifts "through people not just Apostles".
Regards[/b]
I also believe they will cease when the time is right, when no one
gets sick any more there will no longer be a need to heal. The gifts
will pass, but only when they are no longer needed, not before while
they are needed.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensYou cannot say they are only available after the apostiles were laying
Nemesio, there is a big misunderstanding.
I've never said these gifts were only available to the apostles; what I said is that only after the laying of hands of the apostles, these gifts were bestowed (to the disciples). This was the rule.
Two exceptions occured but in two very specific situations; I've explained the reason why that happened, giving scriptures to support the claim.
Regards
on their hands, and in the same post say that there were times they
were not. Either they are or they are not, it isn't both.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensI do have other questions for you too, who appoints who is and is
The letter to the Corinthians is to be read as a whole, not just this or that chapter.
From context you'll understand that Paul is urging that Church to look for the gifts that would last (chapter 13); in chapter 14 he adresses a problem the local Church had with these gifts.
I have a lot of work to do and have no time to write as much as I wanted, t ...[text shortened]... ince the Word has been confirmed and is now perfect/complete (The Holy Bible).
Regards
not an apostle? You never told me why you think that Paul was
talking about the Bible, if he was what version of the Bible or scripture,
in what language, and so on do you suppose Paul was talking about?
I think this question is important if the written Word was enough to
stop the Holy Spirit from giving those gifts. What year was the printed
scripture perfected and do we have the full collection still available
to us today?
Kelly
17 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by xpoferens[/b]I'm breaking our posts up so we can address the separate points
Hi,
[b]I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional?
I don't know what you are trying to say; I don't think I've mentioned Jesus' acts. Please explain.
I'm not sure what you mean by this line of reasoning, of course all spi t God did impart gifts "through people not just Apostles".
Regards
we each are bringing up to help make them a little clearer.
Kelly said,
I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional?
xpoferens said,
I don't know what you are trying to say; I don't think I've mentioned Jesus' acts. Please explain.
You made a point of saying that there were exceptions to why the
laying on of hands were not following your rules of not going through
the apostles. You said it was to prove a point, and I am saying that
Jesus doing the things he did was also to prove a point, the gifts
themselves do prove a point. The truth about God isn't just in the
logic or arguments of man, but in the power of God, the power of God
proves a point.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayOne thing is a rule, other things are exceptions to the rule.
You cannot say they are only available after the apostiles were laying
on their hands, and in the same post say that there were times they
were not. Either they are or they are not, it isn't both.
Kelly
If these exeptions are explainable (and that is the case), then there is no contradiction whatsoever.
The same God that bestowed directly the gifts in the particular occasions narrated in Acts 2 and 10, chose a different way in every other occasion.
In Acts 2 the Apostles had no gifts yet, so they could not bestow them to no one, let alone to themselves; they had to be supernaturally bestowed first; that's what happened.
In Acts 10, I'll quote what I already said previously.
"Regarding what is described in Acts 10, and other passages that describe the same story, that happened so that the skeptic Peter and his companions, as well as other disciples in Jerusalem, could see that salvation was available to gentiles as well as to Jews (I've stated this in a previous post).
Actually, the dream Peter had before he was called to go to Cornelius' house was to prepare his mind to this fact.
Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean.
15 And a voice came unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, make not thou common.
...
Acts 10
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
As you can see by verse 47, the skeptical disciples saw evidence that salvation was available to gentiles as well.
17 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by xpoferens"If these exeptions are explainable (and that is the case), then there is no contradiction whatsoever."
One thing is a rule, other things are exceptions to the rule.
If these exeptions are explainable (and that is the case), then there is no contradiction whatsoever.
The same God that bestowed directly the gifts in the particular occasions narrated in Acts 2 and 10, chose a different way in every other occasion.
In Acts 2 the Apostles had no gifts y 47, the skeptical disciples saw evidence that salvation was available to gentiles as well.
Like I said, if you insist on saying this is the rule and all the times
we can show you that rule, is not a rule, you say they simply do not
count, there is no point in carrying on this conversation. You will
ignore or pass off even that which you admit is there in front of you.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayOK, I see what you mean and I agree totally.
I'm breaking our posts up so we can address the separate points
we each are bringing up to help make them a little clearer.
Kelly said,
I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional?
xpoferens said,
I don't know what you are tr ...[text shortened]... or arguments of man, but in the power of God, the power of God
proves a point.
Kelly[/b]
The power of God, manifested in the supernatural gifts was a great witness for the claim os the apostles and disciples.
Only (big) thing is, I believe they have ceased because now we have the completed and perfect Bible.
Regards
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensWhat version do you believe is perfect and in what language is that
OK, I see what you mean and I agree totally.
The power of God, manifested in the supernatural gifts was a great witness for the claim os the apostles and disciples.
Only (big) thing is, I believe they have ceased because now we have the completed and perfect Bible.
Regards
perfect version of the Bible? What year was it written? Do we still have
with us today those versions? I do believe the Holy Spirit is still here
and has not changed, so why again do you believe it is the written
Word that was coming?
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayWell KellyJay, the same applies to you, with one difference, you haven't shown me that was not a rule.
"If these exeptions are explainable (and that is the case), then there is no contradiction whatsoever."
Like I said, if you insist on saying this is the rule and all the times
we can show you that rule, is not a rule, they simply do not count,
there is no point in carrying on this conversation. You will ignore or
pass off even that which you admit is there in front of you.
Kelly
You have not discussed what I said about Acts 2 and 10.
You have not refuted my explanations for both exceptions, so to me that was a rule.
Regards
17 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayLet me ask you something, are there new books being added to the Bible?
What version do you believe is perfect and in what language is that
perfect version of the Bible? What year was it written? Do we still have
with us today those versions? I do believe the Holy Spirit is still here
and has not changed, so why again do you believe it is the written
Word that was coming?
Kelly
No.
Why not? Because supernatural revelation of new knowledge has ceased as well as every other supernatural gift. (I Corinthians 13). They would all cease at the same time.
Regards