17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidMy neighbours' "desire for communion with God" is satisfied by Islam, their religion. There are Hindus living down my street, originally from Bali, whose "desire for communion with God" is satisfied by their religion too.
People who do not desire communion with God end up in hell.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidAnd what is that "end"?
What is the moral goal of hell? There isn't one. It's the end itself.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidWhat is the reason that hell exists in this sense: who created it?
What is the reason that hell exists? Because people send themselves there through their actions and desires (desire is a redundant word here because desires are actions).
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidTorturing, burning, inflicting pain, keeping a victim alive or not allowing him or her to become unconscious, overseeing the torment etc. these are all actions taken by the god figure in your ideology. How can such actions be taken while having no moral purpose?
Where are you getting that description?
People who do not desire communion with God end up in hell. People who are baptized into the Church of God and repent of their sins are admitted into the Kingdom of God. The gray areas, I do not know about -- nobody really does.
What is the moral goal of hell? There isn't one. It's the end itself.
What is the [i]rea ...[text shortened]... of one's sins and seek communion of God.
At least, this is how I believe it is to be understood.
17 Jul 19
@fmf said(1) First of all, we know that those who never knew God will be appraised through a different means, and even among the Saints there are disagreements as to the means and how it will occur. This is an absolutely different topic with a lot of depth to it, but of course, it is relevant.
Why would a creator being leave such a lack of proof of the veracity of Christianity in so far as only 1 in 3 people in the world subscribe to it - at best? There could be more convincing evidence and a more credible revelation and people would still have the free will to believe something else, surely?
How would a more convincing revelation that embraced more human beings and ...[text shortened]... Christian life - and gain from its communal and personal benefits - be an abrogation of "free will".
However, it is not relevant in the sense that it indicates far more than a third of people in the world are absolutely destined to hell.
It perhaps means rather something different. A third of the people possess knowledge and Christian context which they should be using to bring graces into the world to bless it, and the other two thirds are living in a different sort of context. As to what all that means, I do not know, but it is an incredibly YUUUGEE topic.
(2) Second of all, free will refers to our ability to choose repentance for our sins and a desire for communion with God, and our ability to deny the above.
It hinges largely on the notion that God is perhaps distant, doesn't it?
If God is a proven element that is present for all, the questions of repentance and communion with God for its own sake are thrown out the window....
And now you are talking about whether or not people simply will engage the transaction, right. Will they jump through hoop A to get result B?
That is not what is being tested, or wanted, in our existence.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidI don't actually understand the question.
Whether or not Jesus is there, in person, overseeing the torture of billions of people that you say has "no moral purpose" is not relevant to whether or not what you are describing - and claiming to be real and true - is coherent or credible? Are you sure?
If God is aware of hell (which He most certainly is), what difference would it make whether or not he was observant of it happening? Only the emotional coloring that you bring to this makes it seem persuasive one way or the other, and this is really just an extraneous point.
17 Jul 19
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@philokalia saidSo, you chance upon a theory of supernatural causality and intervention that answers the 'big questions' for you, and then you subscribe to the ideology that people whose curiosity and spiritual dimension steers them to different answers to the 'big question' get subjected to a ludicrously violent punishment, after they die, and deservedly so.
People who do not desire communion with God end up in hell. People who are baptized into the Church of God and repent of their sins are admitted into the Kingdom of God.
Can there possibly be a more malignant and preposterous form of narcissism?
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidWhat is meant about it that it is uncreated is that it is not created by God, but created by circumstance.
This will be a relief to many non-believers, I think. So, your god figure didn't create "hell", and I haven't created "hell", so I clearly don't choose to go to it [and no one has created it], and your god figure doesn't send anyone there and he doesn't torture anyone. So I will die and that will be the end of that. Just as I thought.
Hell is created by the choice that one makes -- not to "let's build hell," but it is a byproduct of the choice to reject communion with God and the repentance for sins.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidWhy would Jesus oversee the administring of torture for eternity if it had no moral purpose? Does Jesus have a moral purpose in overseeing it?
If God is aware of hell (which He most certainly is), what difference would it make whether or not he was observant of it happening?
17 Jul 19
@fmf said
What description?
So, in torturing people who don't believe in Jesus in burning flames for eternity, your god figure has no moral purpose that you are aware of?
If I don't believe in eternal torture then obviously I cannot "choose" it. Does that mean it won't happen to me because there is no one to inflict it on me?
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidExplain. The supernatural burning and torturing process where humans are kept 'alive' to suffer is not created by your god figure? Who created it? What does it mean to claim it was "created by circumstance"?
What is meant about it that it is uncreated is that it is not created by God, but created by circumstance.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidWhich bit of what I said are you unable to understand?So, in torturing people who don't believe in Jesus in burning flames for eternity, your god figure has no moral purpose that you are aware of?
If I don't believe in eternal torture then obviously I cannot "choose" it. Does that mean it won't happen to me because there is no one to inflict it on me?
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidI am not creating "Hell". I don't even believe such a place or state exists. So if I am not creating it, who is?
Hell is created by the choice that one makes -- not to "let's build hell," but it is a byproduct of the choice to reject communion with God and the repentance for sins.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidI have never known God.
First of all, we know that those who never knew God will be appraised through a different means, and even among the Saints there are disagreements as to the means and how it will occur. This is an absolutely different topic with a lot of depth to it, but of course, it is relevant.