17 Jul 19
So... Non-believers send themselves to a "Hell" that was "created by circumstances" where they are deliberately and cruelly brutalized forever and ever for no moral purpose with Jesus present for the torture but not looking at it.
Gosh.
It just gets convoluteder and convoluteder.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidProbably this should be referred to my answer on Muslims, Hindus, etc.
So, you chance upon a theory of supernatural causality and intervention that answers the 'big questions' for you, and then you subscribe to the ideology that people whose curiosity and spiritual dimension steers them to different answers to the 'big question' get subjected to a ludicrously violent punishment, after they die, and deservedly so.
Can there possibly be a more malignant and preposterous form of narcissism?
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidI am sure there are Muslims and Hindus who also exhibit a malignant and preposterous form of narcissism comparable to that of Christians like you.
Probably this should be referred to my answer on Muslims, Hindus, etc.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidI can see how an atheist cannot do this, and I see how non Christians misplace their own forms of repentance and may miss some of the context of it, sure. Which is why we need to spread the light of the Gospels.
People cannot repent to a god figure they do not believe in.
But still, the desire for communion with God and contrition for one's sins means something, and he who knew little will be punished with few stripes.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidGod doesn't actually torture them at all.
Which bit of what I said are you unable to understand?
Hell is the result of their own actions, and so God cannot be said to be torturing them, basically.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia said@fmf said
I can see how an atheist cannot do this, and I see how non Christians misplace their own forms of repentance and may miss some of the context of it, sure.
People cannot repent to a god figure they do not believe in.
@philokalia said
I can see how an atheist cannot do this...
What is the moral purpose of the non-credible threats of eternal torment then?
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidThis sounds like sheer nonsense.
God doesn't actually torture them at all.
Hell is the result of their own actions, and so God cannot be said to be torturing them, basically.
Your god figure is not going to torture me. I am not going to torture me.
How is it you think I am going to end up getting tortured, assuming that I am.
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidYour Gospels surely represent monstrous darkness for billions and billions of human beings, no? It's just as well that they find it far-fetched and unbelievable.
Which is why we need to spread the light of the Gospels.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidThere's a distinction between an atheist who rejects God and rejects christ explicitly, and a person who is in a different religious sect and thus is kept ignorant or kept away from God.
I have never known God.
At least, I can see such a distinction as being meaningful.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidOh no, I am ready to debate it extensively with anyone and offer argumentation as to why Christianity is the one true religion.
By "ignorance or error" you simply mean different from your beliefs - for which you can offer only your own certainty and sincerity - "faith" - and no proof as such to those you think are afflicted by "ignorance or error", is that right?
But surely you don't wish to expand this already massive topic further.
I don't want to play a shell game. I want to have a debate, so let's keep it narrow.
17 Jul 19
@fmf saidOh, so you believe there's some element whereby God is interfering to keep people alive?
Explain. The supernatural burning and torturing process where humans are kept 'alive' to suffer is not created by your god figure? Who created it? What does it mean to claim it was "created by circumstance"?
I've not offered up any such argument or analysis and don't really subscribe to that description, sorry
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidBut I realized after some years that being a Christian didn't mean knowing God. It just meant I had been emersed in one of several manmade "revealed" religions.
There's a distinction between an atheist who rejects God and rejects christ explicitly, and a person who is in a different religious sect and thus is kept ignorant or kept away from God.
At least, I can see such a distinction as being meaningful.
This is an honest and sincere belief and it hasn't prevented me from living my life broadly in accordance with the Christian principles I was brought up with.
Perhaps if it had been more convincing or more credible, I might have stuck with it. Bit it wasn't. If a more believable "revelation" should ever present itself to me - and I believe I might have encountered the creator being for real, I will be open minded about it.
It makes no sense for you to believe that it is morally right for your god figure to punish me for my honesty, open-mindedness and perhaps even my spiritual courage, surely?
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidBurning flames kill and destroy life.
Oh, so you believe there's some element whereby God is interfering to keep people alive?
How can the humans still be suffering the torment in burning flames in 800 years from now, 25,000 years from now, 6,000,000 years from now, and so forth, if the flames killed and destroyed them soon after the punishment began?
Have you never sat down and had a proper think about your ideology?
17 Jul 19
@philokalia saidYou seem to be suggesting that non-Christians that get tortured for eternity do so for their "ignorance or error" and deservedly so. You must surely, on some level, appreciate how that's an absurdly narcissistic a notion your ideology has furnished you with when talking to people with different beliefs from you?
Oh no, I am ready to debate it extensively with anyone and offer argumentation as to why Christianity is the one true religion.
But surely you don't wish to expand this already massive topic further.
I don't want to play a shell game. I want to have a debate, so let's keep it narrow.
17 Jul 19
Philokalia, you are not presenting anything coherent or believable enough for a thinking and interested non-believer to take seriously. Presumably, you have been indoctrinated to some degree and so find what you are saying to be reasonable, as happens with so many manmade ideologies.