@philokalia saidWhy do you think there is not one single jot of credible evidence that 'torment in burning flames for eternity' in the future will actually be real?
Because it isn't happening yet? It's in the future. Maybe something like that.
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Revelation 16's fourth and fifth bowl of the wrath of God at the very end of this age show that some humans will not repent of their sins no matter what.
And the forth poured out is bowl upon the sin; and it was given to it to burn men with fire.
And men were burned with great heat, and they BLASPHEMED the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev' 16:8,9)
These are finally the hardest of the hard. The very authority of God they hate. His love, His grace, His mercy, His patience, His forbearance have had no effect. They hate the very authority of God.
They are willing to be tormented because there must be something that they enjoy more - that is to hate forever the authority of God. Forget about any other attributes of God. They love to hate God's authority more than love their own well-being.
Maybe they have sunken to a level of rebellion that their very purpose of existence is to be against the authority of God.
"they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority ... and they did not repent so as to give Him glory."
It is repeated in the fifth bowl.
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Again as in the fourth bowl of the final wrath of God upon Antichrist, so the fifth bowl. The punished rebels are willing to undergo anything to avoid the agony of acknowledging God, and repenting of their sins.
It is a horrific sight. But I have to believe it.
And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.
And BLASPHEMED the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores, and they did not repent of their works." (Rev. 16:10,11)
They will not repent.
They have what they want - to live without God, without His love, holiness, and glory, without His eternal righteousness.
But reading Revelation closely, we do see that the final outpouring of God's anger will cause some to repent. God has to be faithful and reveal to us that there are the hardest of the hardest who will not turn their hearts to God in repentance no matter what.
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The third verse in Revelation 16 showing the perpetual blaspheming of God is the last verse 21 at the pouring out of the final seventh bowl of God's judgment over the earth.
Putting the three verses on the final unrepentant blaspheming of sinners is revealing. Some will never repent.
Verse 9 - "And men were burned with great heat, and they BLASPHEMED the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory."
Verse 11 - And BLASPHEMED the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works."
Verse 21 - "And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, came down out of heaven upon men; and men BLASPHEMED God for the plague of the hail, because the plague of it is exceedingly great."
What I don't fully understand is how God will cause every knee to bow and every tongue to confess Jesus is Lord, yet some go into eternity perpetually rebellious and blaspheming God.
No one can complain however, that the whole Bible shows nothing else about God reaching out to save man except by violent judgment. Some will intentionally see only this aspect. That is one extreme. The other extreme is to say this aspect doesn't exist at all in Scripture.
These are two extremes on opposite ends of the issue - Nothing but God's wrath and the non-existence of God's wrath.
Take the middle way.
@sonship saidYour god is a vicious SOB. Kind of like Kim Jong Un.
The third verse in Revelation 16 showing the perpetual blaspheming of God is the last verse 21 at the pouring out of the final seventh bowl of God's judgment over the earth.
Putting the three verses on the final unrepentant blaspheming of sinners is revealing. Some will never repent.
Verse 9 - [b]"And men were burned with great heat, and they BLASPHEMED the ...[text shortened]... f the issue - Nothing but God's wrath and the non-existence of God's wrath.
Take the middle way.
"Worship me or I will hurt you" is his mantra.
If you worship that god then you are a deluded fool.
@philokalia saidBut the bible says that god/Jesus creates hell.
Your question has a wrong assumption in it: It assumes that God created hell for a moral purpose. He didn't.
Hell occurs because it is the consequence of unrepentant sin, and the choices that people have made for themselves throughout their life.
It occurs for a reason that is independent of any "moral purpose" fashioned by God, so it is an invalid question. ...[text shortened]... hell that some create and choose for themselves would also apparently serve no moral purpose either.
You are taking utter nonsense.
@philokalia saidYou are sure that non Christians create hell for themselves...but you are unsure whether or not Jesus will be watching the eternal suffering which is specifically called out in revelation as occurring in his presence?
I am not actually sure. It isn't specific enough and I haven't studied it enough. I do not think it is incredibly relevant, either.
@philokalia saidIt seems that you are finding every post made to you as being “hard to respond to”.
It will never be good enough for some people, right? If God does not literally personally appear to people to convince them (even when they do not want this and have closed their hearts off to it), God is supposed to be guilty of it.
It's hard to respond to something like this because there can be no criteria that will ever satisfy the complaint that is honest.
I propose that his is because a) you don’t know your bible on this matter b) you don’t know Christian dogma on this matter c) you are unwilling to admit that mainstream dogma states that enteral suffering exists, but you are completely incapable of defending it either morally, practically or intellectually.
So you are just posting tangential waffle instead.
@philokalia saidThe eternal torture is happening “in the presence of the lamb”
I don't actually understand the question.
If God is aware of hell (which He most certainly is), what difference would it make whether or not he was observant of it happening? Only the emotional coloring that you bring to this makes it seem persuasive one way or the other, and this is really just an extraneous point.
Revelation verbatim
@philokalia saidNo, what you are saying is waffle which you have made up. The bible is clear that god created hell.
What is meant about it that it is uncreated is that it is not created by God, but created by circumstance.
Hell is created by the choice that one makes -- not to "let's build hell," but it is a byproduct of the choice to reject communion with God and the repentance for sins.
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Your god is a vicious SOB. Kind of like Kim Jong Un.
My God is Jesus Christ. And equating Jesus Christ with Kim Jong Un reveals more about the spiritual and moral blackness of your own heart then about my God.
"Worship me or I will hurt you" is his mantra.
If you worship that god then you are a deluded fool.
You're talking like an idiot.
Jump out of this 10th story building window and the law of gravity will pull you down to your death. But you're free to jump.
So you jump to your death, cursing the law of gravity on the way down.
God has His laws. God also has His way of redemption which you spurn and blaspheme.
@sonship saidAnd you are talking like a deluded fool.
@caissad4
Your god is a vicious SOB. Kind of like Kim Jong Un.
My God is Jesus Christ. And equating Jesus Christ with Kim Jong Un reveals more about the spiritual and moral blackness of your own heart then about my God.
"Worship me or I will hurt you" is his mantra.
If you worship that god then you are a deluded fool.
You're ...[text shortened]... he way down.
God has His laws. God also has His way of redemption which you spurn and blaspheme.
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@sonship saidCan you clearly validate this claim (through scripture) that God is depicted as existing everywhere, as opposed to having a distinct location?
@divegeester
Bump for you
What is not in the presence of a God who is omnipresent ?