What is the theory of evolution?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what other Christians claim, whether they are intellectual gymnasts or not, is
irrelevant, the statement was made with reference to and in comparison to other forms
of worship and/or ideologies. Christianity in its purest form, that exemplified by the
Christ is entirely altruistic. That other Christians have emphasised personal salvation is ...[text shortened]... where emphasis is put on the
self, self awareness, self knowledge, self fulfilment, etc etc .

"That one may gain certain
rewards for doing so is not the primary motivation, helping others to apply the things
the Christ taught is and it therefore appears to me to be entirely altruistic and in
contrast to almost every other system that i can think of, where emphasis is put on the
self, self awareness, self knowledge, self fulfilment, etc etc ."

Almost?

Originally posted by twhitehead
The problem is, you see the Bible through rose coloured glasses. You are forced to by your beliefs. What is sad is that you can't even put yourself in others shoes and see what they see when they read the Bible.
As for Christ, he failed to speak out against so much wrong. Either he feared for his own safety and some greater plan, or he doesn't even come ...[text shortened]... sual ignore me because you are too selfish to admit that you once lied and I caught you at it?

i have no pretensions of going to heaven, in fact i never have had any pretensions of
going to heaven, my hope is, as a Christian to live forever on a restored earth, you
may need to check your variations before making specific comments against Christians
with such broad brush strokes.

Originally posted by JS357
"That one may gain certain
rewards for doing so is not the primary motivation, helping others to apply the things
the Christ taught is and it therefore appears to me to be entirely altruistic and in
contrast to almost every other system that i can think of, where emphasis is put on the
self, self awareness, self knowledge, self fulfilment, etc etc ."

Almost?

yes, there may be many systems that i am unaware of, thus the proviso.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what other Christians claim, whether they are intellectual gymnasts or not, is
irrelevant, the statement was made with reference to and in comparison to other forms
of worship and/or ideologies. Christianity in its purest form, that exemplified by the
Christ is entirely altruistic. That other Christians have emphasised personal salvation is ...[text shortened]... where emphasis is put on the
self, self awareness, self knowledge, self fulfilment, etc etc .

I'm amazed that you can even voice that as an argument! A religion that offers eternal life to the 'saved' and either obliteration or eternal damnation to everybody else is not even remotely approaching an altruistic basis.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I'm amazed that you can even voice that as an argument! A religion that offers eternal life to the 'saved' and either obliteration or eternal damnation to everybody else is not even remotely approaching an altruistic basis.

why you should be amazed i cannot say, either Christ set a superlative example or he
did not. If he did then you must agree that Christianity in its purest form is altruistic,
as exemplified by its founder in both word and deed. That salvation is also possible or
condemnation does not negate this fact for one can only appeal to others on the basis
of this self sacrificing love, if they reject it, then what else is there to make an appeal
with?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why you should be amazed i cannot say, either Christ set a superlative example or he
did not. If he did then you must agree that Christianity in its purest form is altruistic,
as exemplified by its founder in both word and deed. That salvation is also possible or
condemnation does not negate this fact for one can only appeal to others on the ...[text shortened]... this self sacrificing love, if they reject it, then what else is there to make an appeal
over?

John 14:6

Altruists don't get to heaven unless they bend the knee.

Christianity is not really about the example given by Jesus. The hold this faith has on it's followers is based in the promises of redemption, forgiveness and reward. Without those promises, there would be no christianity. You may be an altruist, I don't know, but to claim that your religion is based in altruism is either naive or disingenuous.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have no pretensions of going to heaven, in fact i never have had any pretensions of
going to heaven, my hope is, as a Christian to live forever on a restored earth, you
may need to check your variations before making specific comments against Christians
with such broad brush strokes.

As expected, you just dodge the question. You are no less selfish than the average person and your beliefs are primarily motivated by selfishness. It is a basic paradox of Christs message that you cannot follow his teachings solely for personal gain, as that contradicts the selflessness of it, so what motivation is there? Why follow his teachings at all? Ultimately, one must admit that either selfishness and the benefit of others have merits unto themselves and Christs teaching is not required.

You yourself are promoting Christianity on the basis that you expect everyone to recognize the inherent goodness of helping others, yet for some reason you need the religion to motivate you to actually do so. Why are you not motivated to help others simply because you know it is right? Surely an atheist who helps others with no religion telling him he must has purer motives than a Christian who does so on commandment of scripture?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
John 14:6

Altruists don't get to heaven unless they bend the knee.

Christianity is not really about the example given by Jesus. The hold this faith has on it's followers is based in the promises of redemption, forgiveness and reward. Without those promises, there would be no christianity. You may be an altruist, I don't know, but to claim that your religion is based in altruism is either naive or disingenuous.

without rewards there would be no Christianity, oh how I despair great cat! we are
talking of Christianity at its purest form, that is the example set by Jesus Christ, an
example of self sacrificing love. To state that Christianity is not really about the
example and teaching of Jesus is to miss the point entirely, for of course its about the
example and teachings of Jesus, these are what gives Christianity its definition and
what makes it different from all other religious teaching. To simply brush it aside and
cite the fact that the adherent may get certain rewards or the miscreant certain
punishments does not negate this, Christians are willing to undergo all sorts of
discomfort for the love of the principles laid down by Christ and the example of
integrity that he set and even more than that, they are willing to do it for the benefit of
others as well.

Originally posted by twhitehead
As expected, you just dodge the question. You are no less selfish than the average person and your beliefs are primarily motivated by selfishness. It is a basic paradox of Christs message that you cannot follow his teachings solely for personal gain, as that contradicts the selflessness of it, so what motivation is there? Why follow his teachings at all? ...[text shortened]... telling him he must has purer motives than a Christian who does so on commandment of scripture?

as expected you cannot refrain from issuing your obligatory ad hominen, its not about
me, you may want to revise your ability to distinguish between what the person is
saying and the personality behind what was said, you may do better.

Originally posted by FMF
I tell my children, make sure you take responsibility for the reputation you earn and don't blame others for the mistakes you make that affect what people think of you. What did you tell your children on this matter when you were raising them, I wonder. Do they read your RHP contributions?

I was in the military, US Army, and was absent much with my first four
children so I did not tell them anything other than do right. My wife,
who is a Methodist Christian, raised them mainly with a little help from
me from time to time. She let them get away with too much and is
why I think the three oldest boys smoke cigarrettes to this day. She
did take away the Crosman Air Gun that I had given my oldest son
while I was away because she did not control how he used it and he
got in trouble for shooting up the neighborhood. I was there with my
youngest son and he grew up almost perfect. I did not cause that
but I think it helped that I was always around to go to PTA meetings,
etc. My children do not read my RHP contributions.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
without rewards there would be no Christianity, oh how I despair great cat! we are
talking of Christianity at its purest form, that is the example set by Jesus Christ, an
example of self sacrificing love. To state that Christianity is not really about the
example and teaching of Jesus is to miss the point entirely, for of course its about the ...[text shortened]... t he set and even more than that, they are willing to do it for the benefit of
others as well.

Where is this "christianity in it's purest form"? It doesn't exist Robbie! And it never did. I reiterate, if there was no offer of reward, no redemption, no forgiveness, there would be no christianity. It would just be another forgotten cult.

Again, I'm not suggesting anything about you or your behaviour, I'm talking about the fundamental basis of christianity itself. It is just not based in altruism. It is "do this because then this (good for you) or otherwise this (bad for you)".

I'm sure there are a few examples down the ages of altruistic behaviour from adherents to various flavours of christianity, but these are all clearly exceptions rather than the rule. Look to the examples given by the faithful in this forum! How often do we see the veiled (and indeed not so veiled) insults liberally dispensed with smug abandon? This is not the behaviour of people following a faith because of the example of Jesus, and you surely can't believe that it is!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
as expected you cannot refrain from issuing your obligatory ad hominen, its not about
me, you may want to revise your ability to distinguish between what the person is
saying and the personality behind what was said, you may do better.

You cant answer the question, nor will you address my comments. You know I am right and that you have nothing to counter it with. But your ego (a selfish attribute if ever there was one) wont let you admit it.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Where is this "christianity in it's purest form"? It doesn't exist Robbie! And it never did. I reiterate, if there was no offer of reward, no redemption, no forgiveness, there would be no christianity. It would just be another forgotten cult.

Again, I'm not suggesting anything about you or your behaviour, I'm talking about the fundamental basis o wing a faith because of the example of Jesus, and you surely can't believe that it is!

where is it? its in the gospel accounts of the life and example of Jesus Christ. Of
course it is based on altruism, why else would Peter and John leave a successful fishing
business, why else would Paul leave the privileges of Roman citizenship and a higher
education to suffer shipwreck and ultimately martyrdom? One cannot fail to read the
gospel accounts and get the sense of people giving everything up and venturing on a
campaign to take the Kingdom message to anyone who would embrace it, at great
personal cost to themselves, sometimes in the face of severe persecution, this is
the true Christianity that you seek! its the ultimate altruism, you know its true great
Cat!

Originally posted by twhitehead
You cant answer the question, nor will you address my comments. You know I am right and that you have nothing to counter it with. But your ego (a selfish attribute if ever there was one) wont let you admit it.

its not about me, please refrain from making it personal now or in the future.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
where is it? its in the gospel accounts of the life and example of Jesus Christ. Of
course it is based on altruism, why else would Peter and John leave a successful fishing
business, why else would Paul leave the privileges of Roman citizenship and a higher
education to suffer shipwreck and ultimately martyrdom? One cannot fail to read the ...[text shortened]... f severe persecution, this is
the true Christianity that you seek! its the ultimate altruism.

If only it were so. If only christianity came without carrot and stick. But we both know that it's not the case. How many christians do you think there would be if Jesus' message was that there is no life after death, just what you see around you? No threats either - "do good like me or be selfish and cruel, but it doesn't matter a damn because soon you'll be dead and gone anyway". Just how are you going to sell that religion?