28 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecatAgain i think that they would do it because its the right thing to do. Take a look at the
If only it were so. If only christianity came without carrot and stick. But we both know that it's not the case. How many christians do you think there would be if Jesus' message was that there is no life after death, just what you see around you? No threats either - "do good like me or be selfish and cruel, but it doesn't matter a damn because soon you'll be dead and gone anyway". Just how are you going to sell that religion?
teaching of Christ, when the disciples were whinging and thinking of themselves, time
and again, 'what are we going to get out of this', he simply explained, that yes, there
would be rewards, but these would come with persecutions, the motivation for
evangelising was not the reward in itself, although emphasised, but the joy of giving to
others, ones time, energy and resources. There is no need to sell it, truth has a
potency all of its own.
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
28 Jan 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOK I can see that, but you did say speak of it "in
yes, there may be many systems that i am unaware of, thus the proviso.
contrast to almost every other system that i can think of" (bold added). So I thought you had another system in mind that was equal to what Christ taught in altruism, and I would next ask you what that system was.
28 Jan 12
A faith that teaches that you should disadvantage yourself for the good of others yet receive no reward while allowing evil to flourish without threat of punishment? You're telling me you believe this would sell itself? Sorry Robbie, I don't buy it and I don't believe you do either.
There are people who do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. These people don't need scripture to point them in the right direction. Some of 'em might even be christians, but that ain't why they do it.
And if christianity doesn't need the carrot and stick, why does it have them?
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
28 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDare I suggest that your statement above is a "no true Scotsmen" argument? By your words "Christianity in its purest form is altruistic, as exemplified by its founder in both word and deed" you strip away any aspects of Christianity not presented by those words and deeds. Most Christians rely on more than that -- for example, they rely on the words of the OT, Paul, and others, when they speak of Biblical accounts other than those words and deeds.
why you should be amazed i cannot say, either Christ set a superlative example or he
did not. If he did then you must agree that Christianity in its purest form is altruistic,
as exemplified by its founder in both word and deed. That salvation is also possible or
condemnation does not negate this fact for one can only appeal to others on the ...[text shortened]... this self sacrificing love, if they reject it, then what else is there to make an appeal
with?
So you have to argue that personal reward-and-punishment motivations for good behavior are not present in the Bible, or if they are present, are not "Christianity in its purest form." I would certainly agree with the idea that to many Christians, personal reward and punishment motivations ARE integral to Christianity, at least for them, and many of them seem to apply such promises and threats to non-Christians.
So there must be a lot of less-than-pure Christians in the world.
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
28 Jan 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo, if one gives with knowledge that he will obtain the prize of joy, that is in "the joy of giving," it is not altruism and therefore not "pure" Christianity? I hope it is still "OK" to do.
Again i think that they would do it because its the right thing to do. Take a look at the
teaching of Christ, when the disciples were whinging and thinking of themselves, time
and again, 'what are we going to get out of this', he simply explained, that yes, there
would be rewards, but these would come with persecutions, the motivation for
ev ...[text shortened]... ime, energy and resources. There is no need to sell it, truth has a
potency all of its own.
28 Jan 12
Originally posted by JS357The way I see being a Christian is to live my life in such a way that I might
So, if one gives with knowledge that he will obtain the prize of joy, that is in "the joy of giving," it is not altruism and therefore not "pure" Christianity? I hope it is still "OK" to do.
influence someone else to believe in what Christ taught. Science can not
know anything for sure. Science is based on probability and the likelihood
that something is true. That is one reason I do not understand why so many
so-called scientist believe in the theory of evolution because the probability
of it being true is very unlikely IMO. So I do not know for sure, if I live what
I think is a Christian life, that I will be rewarded in this life or a life to come,
if there be such a life. We live by faith based on our belief and hope that it
is true. So if Christ did not rise from the dead all our hope and faith is in
vain. But what better hope does any man have than that of Christians?
28 Jan 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou couldn't refrain, why should I? Yes, it is about you. You are making a claim about Christianity, and simultaneously claim to be Christian. If you are Christian for reasons other than personal gain, then you should have no problem explaining it. If you are Christian for personal gain, that contradicts your claims about Christianity.
its not about me, please refrain from making it personal now or in the future.
The fact is, that you cannot and will not address any of my points regardless of whether they are personal or not.
The most important point I have made which is totally impersonal is that if Christianity is as selfless as you claim there is no motivation for following it.
28 Jan 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThen why are you selling it? If it is self evident that it is the right thing to do, then who needs Christianity? Who needs Christ's example? Us atheists are able to do the right thing without all that baggage.
Again i think that they would do it because its the right thing to do. There is no need to sell it, truth has a potency all of its own.