Spirituality
28 Nov 17
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Zechariah says that those who do not submit to Christ will not receive rain.
Thankyou. And I have been aware of that passage Zechariah 14:17 for many years.
This means famine and drought for those. Do you think that these people will be blessed?
Again, the question I explore is: Is this unruliness extended throughout the entire period of the thousand years?
We can assume so.
Or we can present definite evidence that it is so.
If you have the latter, please present it.
As usual ... the whole story ... read the whole thing. Avoid the interpretations of one man.
Rhetoric.
This usually means "Avoid the interpretations of one man, except me."
Besides, if "one man" has collected the best of bible interpretations over the centuries and distilled them into a deliverable form, it is not really "the interpretations of one man" is it ?
No, it is perhaps one or a few people passing on the cream of the topmost interpretation of Scripture from many who have gone before.
In that case, what is that "one man" doing that YOU are not also doing according to your opinion ?
Use your judgment because your claim that all people will be living happy lives is clearly not the case.
Misrepresentation of my belief.
What I presently see is Christ and His overcoming saints shepherding the nations, if need be with an iron rod. That means strong governmental power.
What you are implying is that they are NEVER successfully brought into alignment with Christ, the King in that age.
However, there is good reason to hold that Christ subdues them sometime within that period of time.
At any rate, whether they are blessed participants or troubled rebels, a large number of them will be deceived once again when Satan is loosed from his prison.
Either way, it is still rather incredible and unthankful.
Originally posted by @sonshipI will present it.
[quote]Again, the question I explore is: Is this unruliness extended throughout the entire period of the thousand years?
We can assume so.
Or we can present definite evidence that it is so.
If you have the latter, please present it.
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Christ will reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.
This one little sentence in the Bible tells several things:
1. During the entire reign of Christ, he will have opposition and enemies
2. Christ reign is not permanent
3. Christ has a specific job and it is not to make the world blessed for everyone, but to put down all sin and evil.
4. He will only put down all his enemies at the end of the millennial reign, after which time he hands over the Kingdom to God.
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Originally posted by @rajk999
I will present it.
Christ will reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.
That is true.
This one little sentence in the Bible tells several things:
1. During the entire reign of Christ, he will have opposition and enemies
The reign of Christ includes eternity.
"But of the Son, Your throne of God is forever and ever ... " (Hebrews 1:8a)
To Whom is the word spoken? "the Son".
How is the Son addressed? "O God".
How long is the duration of the Son's reign? "forever and ever" - eternity.
2. Christ reign is not permanent
"But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Heb. 1:8)
The recipient of the proclamation is "the Son".
Another title of "the Son" is - God - " O God".
The duration of His reign is "forever and ever"
Therefore the scepter of His kingdom, the Son's kingdom, is eternity.
First Corinthians 15:25 does use the word UNTIL. But you are inserting that after the "until" Christ's ceases to reign. That is your mistake.
"For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet." (v. 25)
It does not say that the Son's reign stops, is temporary, comes to a close. It just says He reigns UNTIL something. But He reigns beyond that something because His throne is forever and ever.
3. Christ has a specific job and it is not to make the world blessed for everyone, but to put down all sin and evil.
That is true. But you artificially insert that that means He no longer reigns after some specific task is completed. That is some man made concept foreign to the Bible.
The Son reigns forever and ever.
4. He will only put down all his enemies at the end of the millennial reign, after which time he hands over the Kingdom to God.
it is true that First Corinthians 15:28 says at the end of some period of time the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him.
But Him who subjected all things to Him has a will that the Son be a priestly king forever (eternally).
For it is testified, " You are a priest FOREVER according to the order of Melchisadec." (Hebrews 7:17)
And Melchisedec, means KING ... of peace.
" ... being interpreted king of righteousness, and then king of Salem, which is king of peace." (Heb. 7:2)
Whatever First Corinthians 15:28 means it cannot mean Jesus Christ is a temporary king who will not reign forever and ever.
The Messianic Psalm 72 says of the reigning King that His name will be forever
"His name will be forever, ..." (verse 17a)
The Lord Jesus Christ therefore after the until of the putting down of His enemies and the delivering up the kingdom that God may be all and all, reigns on forever and ever and His name is forever.
Whatever the level of rebellion of the nations at the end of the millennium, this does not change.
The Triune God reigns forever according also to Revelation 11
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 11:15)
The ETERNAL kingdom is the kingdom of Christ, the Lord and Savior.
"For in this way the entrance into the ETERNAL KINGDOM of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly and bountifully supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:11)
15 Dec 17
Originally posted by @sonship[/b]Christ reigns for 1000 yrs.I will present it.
Christ will reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.
That is true.
This one little sentence in the Bible tells several things:
1. During the entire reign of Christ, he will have opposition and enemies
The reign of Christ includes eternity.
[b] "But of the Son, Your ...[text shortened]... avior Jesus Christ will be richly and bountifully supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:11)
He puts dpwn all opposition
He removes sin
The last enemy he destroys is death.
He hands over the Kingdom to God.
His reign as King is over
God is now King.
Christ is UNDER GOD.
The throne last forever.
His reign as King does not.
Its all in the Bible... but as usual you are entitled to twist it any way it makes you happy.
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Originally posted by @rajk999Christ reigns for 1000 yrs.
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Amen. I'm with you there.
He puts down all opposition
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Praise the Lord.
I'm with you there too!
He removes sin
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He deals with the sin nature in man.
He removes sin.
Okay.
The last enemy he destroys is death.
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That's what it says.
I am one with you there too.
He hands over the Kingdom to God.
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He delivers up the kingdom to God the Father that God may be all n all. Amen to First Corinthians 15:27,28.
"For He has subjected all things under His feet. But when He says that all things are subjected, it is evident that all things are except Him who has subjected all things to Him. (v.27)
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all." (v.28)
These two verses are not easy for me.
However, any attempt to use them to rob Christ of His eternal reigning I would resist.
Or any attempt to use these mysterious verses to say Christ is not God Himself I could not possibly accept. And I will explain why below, if that is where you are going.
His reign as King is over
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This could not possibly be true.
Otherwise Hebrews 1:8 would be a mistake, which of course it is not.
But of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Heb. 1:8)
For HOW LONG ... is the Son's throne ?
"But of the SON, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ..."
So First Corinthians 15:27,28 cannot mean Christ no longer sits upon His reigning throne after the millennium.
Now, there is no reason to ASSUME (listen now!) ... there is no reason to ASSUME that the Father to whom Christ delivers up the kingdom is complete submission desires the Christ STOP reigning.
If the Father, to whom Christ subissively delivers up the millennial kingdom, has His will that Christ continue to reign "forever and ever" then Christ continues to reign when God is all in all.
" And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all." (v.28)
When God the Father is "all in all", God the Father STILL has His WILL that the Son reign forever and ever (Heb.1:8).
Why do you assume that the Father for some reason jealously changes His will that the Son's throne be "forever and ever"?
Don't think like a fallen human being.
Enter into the thought of the Triune God.
I already indicated to you "the ETERNAL KINGDOM ... of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
"For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ..." (2 Pet. 1:11a)
Can our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ have an "eternal kingdom" with a "temporary reign"? That is absurd. He can have an "eternal kingdom" if the Son's THRONE is forever and ever.
God is now King.
Christ is UNDER GOD.
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But when was Christ ever not under God?
But the millennial kingdom is also called "the kingdom of God" in Luke. It is usually called "the kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew
The Triune God has the kingdom of Christ and of God.
" ... the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 4:5)
I appreciate that a few posters with whom I sometimes disagree, at least have something I can work with, the Scriptures presented.
The throne last forever.
His reign as King does not.
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I would simply repeat that the Son's THRONE ... is forever and ever - therefore eternal (Hebrews 1:8)
Its all in the Bible... but as usual you are entitled to twist it any way it makes you happy.
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Which word or words am I twisting in the following quotation?
But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ..." (Heb 1:8a)
Which part am I twisting?
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15 Dec 17
Rajk999, you say -
The throne last forever.
His reign as King does not.
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But of the one born Who is called Mighty God and the son given Who is called "eternal Father" [b](Isaiah 9:6) it says of the extent of His kingdom there will be no end.
" To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end, Upon the throne of David
And over His kingdom to establish it and to uphold it in justice and righteousness from now TO ETERNITY.
The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will accomplish this." (See Isaiah 9:6-7)
And Daniel 7:13,14 indicate that the dominion of the Son of Man as a reigning King is an ETERNAL dominion.
Sure. Look.
"I watched in the night visions, And there with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming;
And He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages might serve Him.
His dominion is an ETERNAL dominion, which will not pass away. And His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13,14)
Originally posted by @sonshipThe days of you listening to anything I have to say are long gone, nevertheless I’ll say this anyway.
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all. (v.28)
These two verses are not easy for me.
However, any attempt to use them to rob Christ of His eternal reigning I would resist.
The teaching of the trinity has robbed you of the understanding of this verse in my opinion. If you accept that God is ONE manifested in three offices, rather than three personalities manifested three different ways, scriptures like this become simple.
It is the “office” of the son handing back authority to office of the father. The “office” of the son is temporary. Not saying Jesus is temporary but this lower than the angels “office” which the ONE almighty God has used to lay bare his right arm and deliver man to himself.
ONE god, one person, one entity manifested in different offices. To me is is so simple and so true. I’m sorry that I cannot help you see it.
15 Dec 17
Originally posted by @sonshipYour entire Christian doctrine is a pile of convoluted nonsensical foolishness, hence your long posts full of waffle and bs. Mixing up God and Christ is the start of your confusion. God is God and God sent Christ for a specific purpose.
Rajk999, you say -
[b] The throne last forever.
His reign as King does not.
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But of the one born Who is called Mighty God and the son given Who is called "eternal Father" [b](Isaiah 9:6) it says of the extent of His kingdom there will be no end.
" To the increase of His go ...[text shortened]... t pass away. And His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13,14)[/b]
.. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8 KJV)
That in a nutshell is what Jesus Christ is about. By his death he destroyed sin in himself and paved the way for mankind to start afresh with a new life. In the millennium his job is to completely remove sin and evil from the world and to usher in the New Jerusalem. There are no nations at this point over which to rule. God is all in all.
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15 Dec 17
Originally posted by @rajk999Your entire Christian doctrine is a pile of convoluted nonsensical foolishness,
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Which part of this passage is "a pile of convoluted nonsensical foolishness"?
But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)
hence your long posts full of waffle and bs. Mixing up God and Christ is the start of your confusion.
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God and Christ and the believers in Christ are mingled in this passage:
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)
This is the mingling of God in man. This is the dispensing of the Triune God into man.
Apparently, this day has not yet come for you. You have not realize, it seems, that Christ is in God and that the saved are in Christ and subsequently Christ is in the saved.
Brother Witness Lee has a helpful paragraph on this eternal plan of God:
God’s Eternal Purpose
The entire Bible reveals that in eternity past, according to His own desire, God purposed to do something. He purposed to do one thing—to gain a group of people who would be His living Body and would express God the Father in God the Son as God the Spirit. God’s eternal purpose is to have a living, corporate Body through which He can express Himself as the Triune God. God the Father in God the Son as God the Spirit will be expressed and manifested through a corporate Body composed of human beings.
For further reading refer to:
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1F
The book title is:
Contacting the Lord, Being Filled in Spirit, and Having Proper Christian Meetings for the Accomplishment of God’s Eternal Purpose
by Witness Lee
God is God and God sent Christ for a specific purpose.
.. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8 KJV)
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Nothing I said contradicted that.
That in a nutshell is what Jesus Christ is about.
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Christ's dealing with sin is for the purpose of dispensing God into man.
By his death he destroyed sin in himself and paved the way for mankind to start afresh with a new life.
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In the Hebrews passage where it says Christ destroyed the Devil it further says that He is leading many sons into the divine glory.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings (v.10)
Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil." (v.14) (Hebrews 2:10,14) [/b]
God was incarnated as a man, died a devil destroying death, IN ORDER that He might lead many sons of God into the divine glory expressing God living in men.
You say this is convoluted. The New Testament says that you need the eyes of your heart to be enlightened that you may know the hope of His calling.
In the millennium his job is to completely remove sin and evil from the world and to usher in the New Jerusalem.
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The New Jerusalem is come to even in the church age. It is consummated fully and completely at the end of the millennium.
Today we may come to the heavenly Jerusalem. This is the city of God being dispensed into man.
"But you HAVE COME forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem ... to the church of the firstborn ..." (See Hebrews 12:22,23)
Notice it says of the believers that they HAVE COME. It is not that non-have come YET until the end of the millennium.
Nothing you say above has the slightest effect on the clear passages about the Messiah's eternal dominion and reign in Isaiah 43 and Daniel 7.
Your method of "business as usual" and skipping over detailed refutation of clear passages is probably noted by many to be ineffective.
There are no nations at this point over which to rule. God is all in all.
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Wrong again.
In the scene of eternity AFTER the millennium it says that the nations will walk by the light of the holy city.
"And the nations will walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it."
This is Revelation 21:24 about the new heaven and the new earth AFTER the millennial kingdom described in Revelation 20.
That is all I have time for today.
15 Dec 17
Originally posted by @sonshipNo need for the teachings of Lee or Nee. The words of the Bible speaks clearly:
[b] Your entire Christian doctrine is a pile of convoluted nonsensical foolishness,
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Which part of this passage is "a pile of convoluted nonsensical foolishness"?
[quote] But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightne ...[text shortened]... the millennial kingdom described in [b]Revelation 20.
That is all I have time for today.[/b]
Then the end will come; Christ will overcome all spiritual rulers, authorities, and powers,
and will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father.
For Christ must rule until God defeats all enemies and puts them under his feet.
The last enemy to be defeated will be death.
For the scripture says, "God put all things under his feet."
It is clear, of course, that the words "all things" do not include God himself,
who puts all things under Christ.
But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule,
then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God,
who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-28 GNB)
Once Jesus has overcome the evil of the world then he must give up authority to God.
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Originally posted by @rajk999You have a bad translation of verse 28 from paraphrased Good News Bible.
Better renderings:
English Standard Version
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Berean Study Bible
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
Berean Literal Bible
Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
New American Standard Bible
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
King James Bible
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.
International Standard Version
But when everything has been put under him, then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
NET Bible
... so that God may be all in all.
New Heart English Bible
... that God may be all in all.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
... that God might be all in all.
King James 2000 Bible
... that God may be all in all.
American King James Version
... that God may be all in all.
American Standard Version
... that God may be all in all.
Douay-Rheims Bible
... that God may be all in all.
Darby Bible Translation
( ... that God may be all in all.)
English Revised Version
... that God may be all in all.
Webster's Bible Translation
... that God may be all in all.
Weymouth New Testament
... in order that GOD may be all in all.
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In the millennium his job is to completely remove sin and evil from the world and to usher in the New Jerusalem.
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After the millennial kingdom Christ STILL has the task of leading the saved to waters of life, meaning God's own divine life, for man's enjoyment.
"For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:17)
From "the midst of the THRONE" Christ guides man to the dispensing of divine life and nature as fountains into the beings of the saved.
1.) He does this from the seat of eternal divine authority - "the throne"
2.) This task pertains to the eternal age depicted in Revelation 21 which follows the details of the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20.
Proof:
"And He said to me, They have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely." (Rev. 21:6)
For God to be "ALL IN ALL" in First Corinthians 15:28 neither deprives Christ of His eternal throne, His eternal authority, or His eternal task to guide the saved to the enjoyment of the Triune God's eternal life flowing into their beings.
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Rajk999 says:
Once Jesus has overcome the evil of the world then he must give up authority to God.
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Above the clear words of the Bible show Christ from the throne performing His ministry to guide the saved after the millennium to the dispensing of God's life.
Revelation 21:6 (after the millennial kingdom)
" I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely."compare:
"For the LAMB [the redeemer Godman] who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:17)
This the Godman Jesus Christ does from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal preceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Rev. 22:1)
In eternity is it ONE throne not two. It is THE throne [singular] of God and of the Lamb.
How then can Rajk999 teach that for God to become "all in all" at the end of the millennium is the end of the authority of the reigning Christ ?
He cannot. And He cannot give any kind of definite refutation of either prophesy of Daniel 7:14 which says the One like "the Son of Man" has an "ETERNAL dominion".
He also cannot give a definite refutation to Isaiah 9:6,7 which says the increase of the government of the Godman has no end.
Rajk999 wrongly assumes that for God to be all in all the Father jealously deprives the Son of the Son's eternal throne.
But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" (Heb. 1:8a)
This is not "Your throne, O God the Son, comes to an end".
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16 Dec 17
The angels are reading if no one else.
Praise the Lord.
Rajk999 wants to teach that the specific task of Christ is completed at the end of the millennium.
The Bible says and Nee and Lee faithfully teach, as well as others, that from the midst of the throne of God and of the Lamb (Rev. 22:1) Christ still has an eternal operation to dispense life as living water into the eternal city.