19 Apr 13
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie[/b]There is no reference to a figurative or imaginary earth, as you say, in the Holy Bible. It only refers to this real earth that at some indefinte time will be burned with fire so hot that all the elements will melt. Then it says God will make a new earth that the saved will be able to live on forever. As Peter says, this earth that was once covered with water is now reserved for that indefinite time when it must be burned up and a new earth created. See also Revelation 21 also.
Did I say wired to da moon, yup, i said it.
Please note what the apostle stated in the verses immediately preceding those which you quoted,
(2 Peter 3:5-7) For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were [b]heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of Go ...[text shortened]... o. Clearly the literal heavens and literal earth, beautiful as they are, are to remain forever.
Here is your quote again:
(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.
This does not say the present literal earth will remain forever. It says it will remain for an indefinite time. That is because we do not know the day or hour when Christ will return or the time of Judgment on this world that Peter is writing about.
P.S.
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
(Revelation 21:1 NKJV)
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19 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsRJ, your problem is with the word "new"...
There is no reference to a figurative or imaginary earth, as you say, in the Holy Bible. It only refers to this real earth that at some indefinte time will be burned with fire so hot that all the elements will melt. Then it says God will make a new earth that the saved will be able to live on forever. As Peter says, this earth that was once cov ...[text shortened]... n and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.[/b]
(Revelation 21:1 NKJV)[/b]
In New Testament Greek, there were two words that are translated as "new" in the English Bible; one is NEOS and the other is KAINOS. One Greek resource states:
As distinct from néos, "new in time," kainós means "new in nature" (with an implication of "better"😉. Both words suggest "unfamiliar," "unexpected," "wonderful," and the distinction fades with time.
That KAINOS should not be taken as something totally new can be seen in a passage like the following:
If anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Here the Apostle Paul uses KAINOS in the expression "new creation." Paul did not intend to convey the idea that this is a completely different individual. There is continuity between the old person and the new person to such an extent that it remains the same person, but renovated. The person is the same, but the quality of that person has been transformed.
In the same way, the biblical concept of the New Earth is one of renovation and restoration. This conclusion is supported by Peter's words in the temple at Jerusalem.
Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that he may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
This earth, however, will be cleansed by fire for the purpose of restoration as expressed in the following passage:
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed. Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire? (2 Peter 3:10-12)
19 Apr 13
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyI think the difference can be summed up thusly:
That's all very well if you buy into the idea that
what he says is true and you can rely on that
text as factual and unambiguous but,
If it is all a fairy tale and people place faith and hope in it
to the detriment of themselves and others and they are wrong.
What then?
You are asked to believe three things.
1. There is a God and he cr ...[text shortened]... hat this God
exists or ever existed or that he has a son and that he had
magical powers.
Humans counter their fellow humans adversarily with 'prove it'.
God merely asks us to 'believe'.
19 Apr 13
Originally posted by divegeesterAnd what you're saying is if they were not exposed to Christs teachings then they are out of luck.
God did all this, went through all that effort, suffering and travail and then said:
"however what I'm gonna do is make it only accessible through one little temporal religious organisation and if a person is not a member of that temporal organisation then they are out of luck"
19 Apr 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWho was it who described me as a "legendary troll"? You mean Duchess64?
I am not as famous as you. Just the other day I heard you described as and I quote, ' a legendary troll', ironic dont you think? How do you feel having reached legendary status?
20 Apr 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe claims that your organisation makes about how only members of your organisation will survive the End Times comes from the literature that your organisation produces. Are you saying this fact is not correct?
Please get your facts correct before you attempt to tell me about an organisation that you have never been in, close to or know anything about other than a few persons you claim to have known who were witnesses or what you have gleaned from the internet.
20 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneAnd for me Christianity is only "spirituality for dummies", but hey, lets not pick on Robbie, let's commend him all the same.
I congratulate robbie on his OP.
To the point, and well on target.
To the atheists trying to pick him apart for it, well, I know it's what you 'do', so I really can't fault you for that.
To the Christians finding fault with robbie over it, I say 'get over yourselves'. I am a Christian, and yet not of robbie's denomination, and yet I find no fault ...[text shortened]... 's but as I said, I have no problem with his OP. It is what it is. A starting point.
20 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneThat would be the biblical version of God.
I think the difference can be summed up thusly:
Humans counter their fellow humans adversarily with 'prove it'.
God merely asks us to 'believe'.
The Buddha certainly implored his followers not to believe anything he said without finding the truth in it for themselves first.
20 Apr 13
3 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo you are saying that all the elements that make up the earth being melted together is used by God to make a "new" or "renewed" earth that is different from the first earth, right? Remember, the first heaven and the first earth has passed away, according to Revelation 21. It also says there is no sea left from the first earth. That must be because the water has been dissolved back into the individual elements that it is made of, right?
RJ, your problem is with the word "new"...
In New Testament Greek, there were two words that are translated as "new" in the English Bible; one is NEOS and the other is KAINOS. One Greek resource states:
As distinct from néos, "new in time," kainós means "new in nature" (with an implication of "better"😉. Both words suggest "unfamiliar," "unexpected," "w ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire? (2 Peter 3:10-12)
P.S. Concering the new earth, I am not quoting anythiing Paul said, so what Paul meant concerning humans may not be exactly what Peter and John meant concerning the earth. Don't forget that Isaiah quotes God as saying, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind."
(Isaiah 65:17 NKJV)
This is in Hebrew, not Greek.
20 Apr 13
I suppose Paul may have been referring to the new heaven and the new earth as well as our new bodies and renewed minds when he writes to the Corinthian church the following:
But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
(1 Corinthians 2:9 NKJV)
20 Apr 13
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFI cannot say, i remember reading it somewhere. Are you a legendary troll? How do you feel about the prospect that your incessant trolling has elevated you to legendary status.
Who was it who described me as a "legendary troll"? You mean Duchess64?
20 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by Suziannethank you, its somewhat unusual for me to find commendation in this forum. Even more unusual to be the recipient of such.
I congratulate robbie on his OP.
To the point, and well on target.
To the atheists trying to pick him apart for it, well, I know it's what you 'do', so I really can't fault you for that.
To the Christians finding fault with robbie over it, I say 'get over yourselves'. I am a Christian, and yet not of robbie's denomination, and yet I find no fault 's but as I said, I have no problem with his OP. It is what it is. A starting point.
20 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think I am more well known for posing awkward questions to the sorts of people who like to dodge and deflect by calling me a troll. 🙂
I cannot say, i remember reading it somewhere. Are you a legendary troll?
edit: I think you calling me a troll and similar stuff belongs on the "robbie carrobie" thread.
20 Apr 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterInteresting, thanks for making the distinction.
RJ, your problem is with the word "new"...
In New Testament Greek, there were two words that are translated as "new" in the English Bible; one is NEOS and the other is KAINOS. One Greek resource states:
As distinct from néos, "new in time," kainós means "new in nature" (with an implication of "better"😉. Both words suggest "unfamiliar," "unexpected," "w ...[text shortened]... ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire? (2 Peter 3:10-12)