Originally posted by jammerThe thing about God (if He exists) is this .. we'll never be able to understand Him or His motives.
I agree .. the 2 go hand in hand IMO.
It's our curse AND blessing.
The thing about God (if He exists) is this .. we'll never be able to understand Him or His motives.
The Bible story of creation .. Adam and Eve, begins with everything being good 24/7 .. then gets interesting when evil is introduced. Without that .. the story of mankind would be a bor ...[text shortened]...
Throw in temptation, desire and an ego and you've got a human-being ... warts and all.
We won't understand everything, but enough to be without excuse.
Originally posted by rwingettAssuming God does not exist, does evil exist?
If we look at the Genesis account of creation we can see that through the first five days god had created the heavens and the earth, light, a firmament, water and dry land, more light, and finally, sea creatures and birds. Then came the sixth day:
[i]24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creepin ...[text shortened]... ent (or Satan), or Adam and Eve, but the Lord himself who created evil.
Any comments?
Originally posted by PhuzudakaI don't believe it does. We can look at the actions of others and find them deplorable in respect to our accepted moral outlook, but reifying 'evil' is pointless and I just don't believe there is such a thing.
Assuming God does not exist, does evil exist?
Originally posted by StarrmanHow do you deal with the suffering of children? "Them's the breaks, folks"?
I don't believe it does. We can look at the actions of others and find them deplorable in respect to our accepted moral outlook, but reifying 'evil' is pointless and I just don't believe there is such a thing.
Originally posted by PhuzudakaNo. Using what the bible tells us, we have deductively established that the serpent was good. If you want to argue that what the bible tells us is incorrect, then perhaps we can re-examine the serpent's status.
Would you say that the serpant had no say as to whether Satan could use him? Did the sepant not allow Satan to do the deceiving through him?
Originally posted by PhuzudakaAssuming for the moment that free will is even possible in conjunction with an omnipotent and omniscient god, you still have one problem: Did Adam and Eve have free will when they ate from the tree? Some people on this forum have argued that knowledge of good and evil is a necessary precondition for free will. If so, this would mean that Adam and Eve could not have had free will until after they ate from the tree.
Evil came through choice. With free-will came the possibility for evil.
From a Biblical perspective I am not sure how one gets around the concept of man "falling". If so from what?
My concept of sin is merely deviating away from the will of God. For example, God told them not to eat of the fruit. That was his will or he would not have said so. The implication here is that God "set them up" and really wanted them to eat of the fruit which really would have been his will. If so, it really would not have been a sin or a rebellion of some kind.
This is why the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart and soul and mind. If you do so you believe that he loves you and believes that his will is perfect for you and his creation and believe that anything short of this will falls short of what is best for us. It did not have to be the fruit, it could have been another issue. We either adhere to the Lord our God or we become "gods' unto ourselves as the serpanet indicated to Adam and Eve.
However, if one is distrustfull of God and distrustfull that he is actually holy then how can one have faith in him? I say it is getting to know him that makes all the difference. For Adam and Eve they lost faith for whatever the reason. They reasoned that perhaps God said so, BUT what if this is not true or exagerrated or interpreted a different way in the Hebrew langauge?
I meant natural/accidental over human etc. As I said above, humans acting in such ways are deplorable. The natural process of cause and effect is just that, natural. It's the reification I take issue with; people can be evil (bad, abhorrent, amoral etc.) to each other as opposed to EVIL (sin, devil, god etc), but natural events are neither.
Originally posted by StarrmanSo the question is pointless if you believe that God does not exist.
I don't believe it does. We can look at the actions of others and find them deplorable in respect to our accepted moral outlook, but reifying 'evil' is pointless and I just don't believe there is such a thing.
Originally posted by rwingettMan was also good before he fell. Where does the Bible say that the serpant was still good when he deceived Eve?
No. Using what the bible tells us, we have deductively established that the serpent was good. If you want to argue that what the bible tells us is incorrect, then perhaps we can re-examine the serpent's status.
Originally posted by rwingettI agree that it is not possible for man to have absolute freedom and for God to be absolutely sovereign at the same time. But I would agrue that man does not have absolute freedom, and thus the freedom of man is perfectly compatible with the sovereinity of God.
Assuming for the moment that free will is even possible in conjunction with an omnipotent and omniscient god, you still have one problem: Did Adam and Eve have free will when they ate from the tree? Some people on this forum have argued that knowledge of good and evil is a necessary precondition for free will. If so, this would mean that Adam and Eve could not have had free will until [b]after they ate from the tree.[/b]
In my opinion they had a free will to choose to obey or disobey God before they ate of the fruit, because God clearly instructed them not to eat of the fruit. God said that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die, and die they did after they had eaten of the fruit.