Spirituality
19 Aug 09
20 Aug 09
4 edits
Originally posted by galveston75=================================
Jay. I really appreciate your wisdom and your ability to write very impressive post. No one does that better.
But just an observation of your comments as well as others that try to convience that the trinity is in the bible. It's that there is usually a lot that is being said and some of it somewhat applys to what is being said but then a good portion trying and not saying what less studied ones like yourself do and say it's just a mystery.
But at least your trying and not saying what less studied ones like yourself do and say it's just a mystery.
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Hold on here. Hold on. Let's talk about mystery. OK? Nice and simple.
Listen. When we say that something in the Bible is mysterious or a mystery we are NOT SAYING .... that we cannot partake of, experience, enjoy, participate in that matter.
The birth of a human child, last time I checked, is rather mysterious. How that sperm and that egg come together, multiply, and develop into another human being is to me really mysterious.
But we can experience and enjoy the matter of marriage and having children and raising a family.
"The Triune God is mysterious" does not mean we cannot enjoy and participate in God. It means that we can do so without being fully able to EXPLAIN Him.
The New Testament says "the MYSTERY of the faith". The New Testament says "the MYSTERY of godliness". The New Testament says "Great is this MYSTERY ... Christ and the church". THe New Testament says "the glory of this MYSTERY, Christ in you the hope of glory".
You have to BLAME, LISTEN !! You have to blame the New Testament for telling the world that some things related to the experience of God are "MYSTERY". Before I said it, the Bible said it.
The child born who is called Mighty God and the Son given who is called Eternal Father is called WONDERFUL (Isa. 9:6).
That means that He is full of wonder. He is mysterious. Though He is mysterious He is still "unto us" for our enjoyment and participation and fellowship.
So when you here some believers say that this or that is a mystery, do not take that to mean "So we don't know anything about it." It means that we know it by experience but it is hard to EXPLAIN.
It is not a cope out. It is echoing what God's word sometimes tells us. we can enjoy the Triune God. We cannot fully explain the Triune God.
He is firstly for our experience. He is not primarily or only for our objective information that we may have some mental doctrines to teach as dogmatic knowledge.
20 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillBut the TRUTH is not a mystery. Nothing in ther bible is a mystery. Many of your associates who believe in this trinity thing finally give up trying to explain it and say "it's a mystery" or as in your case throw so much unrealted material trying to expalin it, it finally looks silly. Sorry but that's all I've ever heard from thrinity believers.
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But at least your trying and not saying what less studied ones like yourself do and say it's just a mystery.
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Hold on here. Hold on. Let's talk about mystery. OK? Nice and simple.
Listen. When we say that something in the Bible is mysterious or a mystery we a ...[text shortened]... ation that we may have some mental doctrines to teach as dogmatic knowledge.[/b]
20 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75of course the truth is a mystery.
But the TRUTH is not a mystery. Nothing in ther bible is a mystery. Many of your associates who believe in this trinity thing finally give up trying to explain it and say "it's a mystery" or as in your case throw so much unrealted material trying to expalin it, it finally looks silly. Sorry but that's all I've ever heard from thrinity believers.
It was a mystery how people contracted the plague until science revealed it to us. Lightning was a mystery until science revealed it to us. JFK's murder is shrouded in mystery, yet its true that he's dead.
from my perspective I believe in the triune God, my not having a full understanding of God makes God a mystery to me. All mysteries will be revealed in the fullness of time and at God's command. It's the arrogance of humanity to think that they are capable of defining God, knowing his name and being entitled to use it, or to even begin to understand His majesty.
I don't have all the answers, you don't, Jay doesn't, Robbie doesn't, but God does; please don't pretend that you're God and have all the answers, its blasphemy and offensive to God and man.
20 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecerThe trinity may be a mystery to those who believe it. It is not a mystery at all to those who don't. It is not simply something we don't get, it's something that does not exist.
of course the truth is a mystery.
It was a mystery how people contracted the plague until science revealed it to us. Lightning was a mystery until science revealed it to us. JFK's murder is shrouded in mystery, yet its true that he's dead.
from my perspective I believe in the triune God, my not having a full understanding of God makes God a mystery to ...[text shortened]... that you're God and have all the answers, its blasphemy and offensive to God and man.
If you are looking for the truth in the Bible and God see's that then there are no mysterys. Why would he have this book written that would lead us to the knowledge that we need to have a good and true relationship with him and could eventually lead to saving our lifes it it had parts we could not understand?
20 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75smoke and mirrors my friend, that's all your argument is. you can't refute my statement, so you denegrate my theology. the triune God doesn't need your belief to exist, you are incidental to Him.
The trinity may be a mystery to those who believe it. It is not a mystery at all to those who don't. It is not simply something we don't get, it's something that does not exist.
If you are looking for the truth in the Bible and God see's that then there are no mysterys. Why would he have this book written that would lead us to the knowledge that we nee ...[text shortened]... h him and could eventually lead to saving our lifes it it had parts we could not understand?
20 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywilli am sorry jaywill but this is completely unacceptable, like a true trinitarian you are skipping form one scripture to another and have not addressed, no, not one of the points that i raised in my last post, with regard to the original language of the verses that i quoted, stating quite clearly that the Holy spirit is Gods agent for accomplishing many things. if you are not willing to address these scriptures then i see no further point in discussing the matter with you. look at this type of reasoning,
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the holy spirits name, the lord, give me peace Jaywill, the Lord, haha, what type of name is 'the Lord?' , is it a proper name?
now you will be pleased to answer how the holy spirit is God, this should be interesting to note your contortions, so if you please
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t the Father has through the Son by the Spirit into the believers.[/b]
God is a spirit, that should be enough to prove????, yes God is a spirit, as are the angels, as is Christ, etc etc, this proves absolutely nothing, it sates that God is a spiritual entity, are we to conclude that the angels are also the holy spirit, no, thus the folly of your reasoning stretches even my fervent imagination, beyond belief. thus your whole argument is flawed from its inception.
it is clear that you cannot even make the distinction between the Father, The son and Gods active agent, the Holy spirit, why is that? simply because you have come to the table with a preconception and have sought to prove it by means of scripture, rather than letting scripture speak for itself. there is one God above all, his name is clearly Jehovah, (psalm 83:18) there is one son, the messiah, Christ, and there is an active agent, the Holy spirit, until you address the points that i raised in the original language, i see no reason to dispute this, it is clear as clear can be.
20 Aug 09
Originally posted by dueceri beg to differ
smoke and mirrors my friend, that's all your argument is. you can't refute my statement, so you denegrate my theology. the triune God doesn't need your belief to exist, you are incidental to Him.
(Matthew 10:29-31) . . .Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore have no fear: you are worth more than many sparrows.
20 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75yes it is a completely useless and futile exercise, i do not know about you my friend, but i got a zillion other reasons to discuss what is actually in the bible rather than what is not.
Robbie.....It seems useless huh? He is an extrememly inteligent person but has let himself be blinded. Maybe Jay some day like thousands that have had this belief and finally realizd it's not the truth, will come to see the correct truth in the Bible.
21 Aug 09
5 edits
Originally posted by galveston75================================
But the TRUTH is not a mystery. Nothing in ther bible is a mystery. Many of your associates who believe in this trinity thing finally give up trying to explain it and say "it's a mystery" or as in your case throw so much unrealted material trying to expalin it, it finally looks silly. Sorry but that's all I've ever heard from thrinity believers.
But the TRUTH is not a mystery. Nothing in ther bible is a mystery. Many of your associates who believe in this trinity thing finally give up trying to explain it and say "it's a mystery" or as in your case throw so much unrealted material trying to expalin it, it finally looks silly. Sorry but that's all I've ever heard from thrinity believers.
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First of all, you probably have no idea who my "associates" are. But that's a small point. The brotherhood of believers is universal. But if you speak of "associates", I'll introduce you to some.
www.godseconomy.org
www.localchurches.org
www.lsm.org
Secondly, I have long, long since learned not to be worried about what worldings consider "silly" about my Christian faith.
Third, I am not sure what "unrelated" matters you're speaking of. The "mystery of the faith" is not "unrelated" to the truth of the Triune God. "This mystery" of the "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is also not "unrelated" to the truth of the Triune God. The great "mystery of godliness" is also not "unrelated" to the Triune God.
Now, I am not sure what thread it was, perhaps this one. But you asked me about the unpardonable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit. I said I would reply latter with further study.
I have not taken much time to study. I recall what I studied on this in the past though. And I will give you my reply.
I do not know exactly how to interpret this passage. But I think the most probable meaning is that to reject the Holy Spirit as He seeks to enter into one's heart to bring Christ and His salvation, is the only sin I know of which has no forgiveness. That is simply because the person who rejects Christ coming to them cannot therefore be redeemed. So that must be the sin which receives no forgiveness neither in this age or in the coming age.
My opinion at the moment is that this "speaking against" the Holy Spirit today must mean refusing to let the Spirit of Jesus Christ come into our human spirit. If you do not, how then can you be saved ?
And anyone to whom this principle would not necessarily apply, is probably not a person able to read this post.
As for the revelation of the Triune God. It is there in the Scritures. You won't be the last scoffer come along to deny that the Son is God according to (Isa. 9:6. and Hebrews 1:8) or that the Holy Spirit is God, according to (Acts 5:3,4)
21 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillYour missing the point that I'm making. If the Son and the Holy spirit are all equal, all knowing, etc, as you say, then why is one different in this circumstance? Doesn't make sence.
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But the TRUTH is not a mystery. Nothing in ther bible is a mystery. Many of your associates who believe in this trinity thing finally give up trying to explain it and say "it's a mystery" or as in your case throw so much unrealted material trying to expalin it, it finally looks silly. Sorry but that's all I've ever ...[text shortened]... that the Holy Spirit is God, according to [b](Acts 5:3,4)[/b]
I know how your going to answer because I've heard it before..but go ahead.
21 Aug 09
if i may join in a bit late. the trinity, is this the question??
if so none are above god, but as there are the son and holy spirit. the first was raised above all men to know the father, to teach his ways for man to follow. the holy spirit does the work that is wanted by god on earth without being seen, ie burn the heart with joy at the word, to do some human need that is santified by god.
the mystery is a bit vague but a good get out by churchs
21 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I don't know how we got off the subject of this thread but I have a comment on this trinity thing that I can't rememeber if it's been commented on. If it has then I missed it.
Your missing the point that I'm making. If the Son and the Holy spirit are all equal, all knowing, etc, as you say, then why is one different in this circumstance? Doesn't make sence.
I know how your going to answer because I've heard it before..but go ahead.
But it's about Jesus's prehuman existance and how it does not help the trinity cause.
Jesus was in the heavens before he allowed himself to come to earth and do what he did for us. I think most know that?
John 3:13, 6:38,62, 8:23,42,58& 17:5 verify this.
First point I want to make is God had no beginning. Ps 90:2, Rev 15:3, Hab 1:12, 1Tim 1:17.
Did Jesus have a beginning? Col 1:15-17, John 6:57, Rev 3:14 confirm this.
If they are the same in every way, all equal, all knowing, etc, how could one have been forever and the other had a beginning?
21 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75============================
Your missing the point that I'm making. If the Son and the Holy spirit are all equal, all knowing, etc, as you say, then why is one different in this circumstance? Doesn't make sence.
I know how your going to answer because I've heard it before..but go ahead.
Your missing the point that I'm making. If the Son and the Holy spirit are all equal, all knowing, etc, as you say, then why is one different in this circumstance? Doesn't make sence.
I know how your going to answer because I've heard it before..but go ahead.
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Quote me where I said something about "all knowing". I want to be careful that I understand exactly your question and that you do not put words into my mouth.
So please quote me so that I should accept your characterization of my belief as "the Son and all equal, all knowing".
I don't think I discussed anything about omniscience the man Jesus at the moment He spoke that. God was incarnated as a man and it is obvious that that man was sometimes under human limitation as all normal men are.
He was sometimes surprised at something said or done.
He knew someone touched Him but did not know who, and had to ask.
So I have to be careful that you do not place words in my mouth and that you do not erect a strawman argument on me, boasting that you have heard it all before.
Today, in this church age, in this age of grace, we are told "Now the Lord is the Spirit". How else can Paul say "Jesus Christ is in you"?
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
Because Christ lives in the Holy Spirit, to receive the Holy Spirit is to receive Christ. It is not just to receive some force or power --- "Jesus Christ is in you."
He did not say, a representative of Jesus Christ is in you. He did not say a force of Jesus Christ is in you. He said to the Christians "Jesus Christ is in you."
This is NOT to suggest that there is no power, no empowering, and no force with the Person of Jesus Christ. It IS to proclaim that Christ, the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17)
And if you are weary of reading it then I write for those who may have not read it, or who need it repeated. John says the disciples KNOW that God abides in them because of the Spirit that He has given them.
" ... God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. In this we know that we abide Him [God] and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13)
"God abides in us ..." writes the Apostle John. The Holy Spirit that the regenerated believers have received of God brings God into them. And with God Jesus Christ comes and we also can say "Jesus Christ is in you".
You have no case to deny that the Son and the Spirit are God.
If the Spirit is not God and God abides in the believers, than of what need is there for the Holy Spirit?
If the Son is not God and God abides in the believers, than of what need is there for the Son ?
In fact the coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of the Divine WE in John 14:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of the Divine WE, the Father and the Son to make an abode with the believer and lover of Christ. There is no possibility of any argument.
Now the specific question you asked where Jesus spoke of the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit only shows a distinction between the Son and the Spirit. I have not denied at any point that there is a distinction. I have said that there is no separation. One lives in the Other. Some theologians call this coinherance. Each of the Three lives in the Other.
There is distinction between the three of the Godhead, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But there is no separation.
21 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillThat is the explination all give of the Trinity.
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Your missing the point that I'm making. If the Son and the Holy spirit are all equal, all knowing, etc, as you say, then why is one different in this circumstance? Doesn't make sence.
I know how your going to answer because I've heard it before..but go ahead.
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Quote me where I sai ...[text shortened]... of the Godhead, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But there is no separation.[/b]