who are the 144,000?

Originally posted by galveston75
That is the explination all give of the Trinity.

What I discribed to you is largely NOT what all trinitarians give as explanation.

In some aspects perhaps. There are plenty of trinitarians who would object to me saying with Paul "the Lord is the Spirit".

I could show you vehement debates over the matter.

You see, it is not creed that I appeal to. It is the pure utterance of the Bible. What is WRITTEN is what concerns me.

Do not pretend that you are getting standard answers because I know you are not.

I can prove that these are not mainstream trinitarian answers.
But this is the ANSWER from the Bible.

Originally posted by galveston75
The trinity may be a mystery to those who believe it. It is not a mystery at all to those who don't. It is not simply something we don't get, it's something that does not exist.
If you are looking for the truth in the Bible and God see's that then there are no mysterys. Why would he have this book written that would lead us to the knowledge that we nee ...[text shortened]... h him and could eventually lead to saving our lifes it it had parts we could not understand?

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The trinity may be a mystery to those who believe it. It is not a mystery at all to those who don't.
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I believe I can give reasons for that.

Many JWs and others who BOAST "There is no mystery to this trinity thing. It is just a pagan belief slipped in that millions are duped to take along with Santa Claus. There's no mystery to us !!"

1.) They have no experience of the Holy Spirit many times so they are not talking from personal experience.

2.) In the case of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are totally discouraged from praying to Christ, probably also from being born of God, born again. The thought of receiving Christ is foreign to them.

It is the Father, the Old Testament Jehovah that must be exalted. Christ is just an angel like Gabriel. They are systematically turned AWAY from Jesus Christ by the subtle tactic of Satan.

But it is done in the name of "true religion" .. a most tragic situation. Since many never had Christ come and make an abode with them, all they have is an objective religion with "Jehovah" out there, his little helper the archangel Michael (temporarily called Jesus), and a arrogant boast that there is no mystery to any of it.

Don't take my word for it. Go down to your Kingdom Hall and ask 50 people if Jesus Christ lives in them. See how much excuses you get.

I do believe that the majority of them will say that no such relationship with Jesus the living Person living in them is possible. But as long as they revere Jehovah the Old Testament style Creator who is up there, far off, and abut to bring a kingdom to earth, they are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Their essential rejection of so much of the New Testament forces them to continue Russell's Arianism and opposition to the New Testament revelation.

There is no mystery because they don't really believe what it says anyway.

Originally posted by jaywill
What I discribed to you is largely NOT what all trinitarians give as explanation.

In some aspects perhaps. There are plenty of trinitarians who would object to me saying with Paul [b]"the Lord is the Spirit".

I could show you vehement debates over the matter.

You see, it is not creed that I appeal to. It is the pure utterance of the Bible. W ...[text shortened]... that these are not mainstream trinitarian answers.
But this is the ANSWER from the Bible.[/b]

Again I say: If this trinity was a truth, then there would be no confusion, no disunity or all these different opinions or thoughts or variations of this. It would be clear and easy to understand and it certianly is not. All one has to do is simple research on the internet and there are dozens of thoughts or ideas as to what exactly this silly trinity dogam is. It's hallarious to read and hear ones who believe in this try to explain it. Oh well it's intertaining to say the least.

Originally posted by galveston75
But as confusing as you say it is, would you believe that God would know exactly who the 144,000 are?

well I'm absolutely certain I'm going to heaven, so we only need to figure out who the other 139,999 are.

Originally posted by duecer
well I'm absolutely certain I'm going to heaven, so we only need to figure out who the other 139,999 are.

Cool..What are you going to do there?

Originally posted by galveston75
Cool..What are you going to do there?

I figure the first couple of million years I'll catch up on my sleep, then maybe I'll read every book ever read, followed by an in-depth analysis of every planet in the universe. The last part should take me awhile

Originally posted by duecer
I figure the first couple of million years I'll catch up on my sleep, then maybe I'll read every book ever read, followed by an in-depth analysis of every planet in the universe. The last part should take me awhile

Sounds awesome. Have a great life up there and send post cards too!!

Originally posted by galveston75
Again I say: If this trinity was a truth, then there would be no confusion, no disunity or all these different opinions or thoughts or variations of this. It would be clear and easy to understand and it certianly is not. All one has to do is simple research on the internet and there are dozens of thoughts or ideas as to what exactly this silly trinity do d hear ones who believe in this try to explain it. Oh well it's intertaining to say the least.

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Again I say: If this trinity was a truth, then there would be no confusion, no disunity or all these different opinions or thoughts or variations of this.
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Not necessarily. What may be true and is is that more people are busy arguing about the Trinity than concentrating on EXPERIENCING the Trinity.

I have been saying that. I said more than once that the Trinity is for our experience and enjoyment. It is not for us to have a creed. It is not simply to have a theological teaching.

Here is the Trinity right here spoken of in terms of experience:

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." ( 2 Cor. 13:14)

That is not a call to analyze let alone debate about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is a call to be in the enjoyment of the Son's grace, the Father's love, and the Holy Spirit's fellowship.

When we are in the grace, and in the love, and in the fellowship there is little need to debate because we are too busy experiencing the Trinity.

Do not say " Well, the Trinity has certainly been a contentious issue that has divided people into different opinions. So our solution is to teach that Christ was not the Word Who was God and became flesh. We have a solution to the divisions. That is to teach that Christ is the archangel Michael."

There are thousands upon thousands of us who are one, united, and built together who enjoy the Triune God. Maybe two of us, if we really tried, could find something to disagree about doctrinally. But the Triune God is our very oneness in the way of enjoyment and experience.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
Again I say: If this trinity was a truth, then there would be no confusion, no disunity or all these different opinions or thoughts or variations of this.
===================================

Not necessarily. What may be true and is is that more people are busy arguing about the Trinity than conce ...[text shortened]... ctrinally. But the Triune God is our very oneness in the way of enjoyment and experience.[/b]

Final thought on the Trinity:
It is not in the Bible.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible.
It was not taught or mentioned in any way "once" by Jesus or any of the apostles.
It was introduced into the Cathloic religion 400 years after Jesus died. It has very pagan origins.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Vol. 14 page 299 says: "The formulation of God being 3 persons in one was not fully assimilated into Christian life until the 4th century. Among the Apostlolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Originally posted by galveston75
Final thought on the Trinity:
It is not in the Bible.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible.
It was not taught or mentioned in any way "once" by Jesus or any of the apostles.
It was introduced into the Cathloic religion 400 years after Jesus died. It has very pagan origins.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Vol. 14 page 299 says: "The formulat ...[text shortened]... Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Since you obviously ignored this post before (because it fully rebutts your pathetic argument) I'll repost it:

lutheranism
Arianism (JW's follow this theology)
Calvinism
Methodism
Augastinianism
Uniterianism
Trinitarianism


These are schools of theology, including the JW's, so of course they are not mentioned. Yours is a straw man argument. Your better than that.

Final thought on the JW's: The term Jehovah's Witness and the orginizational structure appear nowhere in the bible, so it must be a modern invention...oh yeah 1880's wasn't it?

Originally posted by duecer
Since you obviously ignored this post before (because it fully rebutts your pathetic argument) I'll repost it:

lutheranism
Arianism (JW's follow this theology)
Calvinism
Methodism
Augastinianism
Uniterianism
Trinitarianism


These are schools of theology, including the JW's, so of course they are not mentioned. Yours is a straw man argument ...[text shortened]... appear nowhere in the bible, so it must be a modern invention...oh yeah 1880's wasn't it?

What does any of this have to do with the pagn teachings of the Trinity?

Originally posted by galveston75
What does any of this have to do with the pagn teachings of the Trinity?

yer pretty thick....and brainwashed

Originally posted by duecer
yer pretty thick....and brainwashed

Well, enjoy your 3 headed God.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well, enjoy your 3 headed God.

Nobody said He Is 3 Headed, He's 3 Different People.

Originally posted by daniel58
Nobody said He Is 3 Headed, He's 3 Different People.

All pictures that your churches have show 3 heads...