14 Oct 19
@sonship saidTo understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said.
@ThinkOfOne
I advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth.
Passages such as 1 John 3:4-9 are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth.
The verse you cited is not.
No you do not preach the Gospel of Christ.
No one can even clearly get you to admit that you believe in God.
And you oppose Christ a ...[text shortened]... of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27,28) [/b]
1) The word given as "forgiveness" literally means "FREEdom".
2) In John 6 Jesus also speaks of "eating", "bread", "body/flesh", "drinking" and "blood". wherein Jesus uses the metaphor of "eating flesh", "drinking blood" to refer to " the words that I have spoken to you". In short, one "eats" and "drinks" His words so that they will abide in Him.
3) In John 15 Jesus explains that "abiding" in Him entails "keep[ing] His commandments" (words).
4) In John 8 Jesus explain that those who "abide in [His] words" will be made "FREE" from committing sin.
So when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6.
So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [FREEdom from] sins" which parallels what He said in John 8 about those who abide in His word being FREEd from committing sin.
This makes so much more sense than Him making some really awkward reference to His future death. Especially in light of Luke 22:19 where He says "do this in remembrance of Me." He's asking them to do it in remembrance of His words - NOT in "remembrance" of His death which hasn't happened yet.
Also consider the definition of "covenant":
The Idea of Covenant. The term "covenant" is of Latin origin (con venire), meaning a coming together. It presupposes two or more parties who come together to make a contract, agreeing on promises, stipulations, privileges, and responsibilities.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/covenant/
As such, it makes perfect sense that the New Covenant was conveyed with words. The gospel preach by Jesus during His ministry comprises the "promises, stipulations, privileges, and responsibilities" set down by God for His people.
In Luke 4 at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus, Jesus declares that one of the purposes for which He was anointed was to "proclaim release to the captives". Once again this is about FREEdom - not forgiveness.
The bottom line is that those who abide in His word are made FREE from the slavery of committing sin. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent throughout about this. Everything points to FREEdom - not forgiveness. FREEdom from committing sin.
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To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said.
I didn't even read the rest of your post beyond this sentence.
To understand what Jesus is saying you first have to believe in God.
You cannot clearly confess to this. So then forget about understanding the words of Jesus or helping ANYBODY to understand the words of Jesus.
Period.
End of Story.
End of "C'mon jaywill".
So start here. Do you believe in God? If you cannot give a clear confession that you believe in God, forget about helping anyone to understand the words of Jesus Christ.
@sonship saidI didn't even read the rest of your post beyond this sentence.
@ThinkOfOne
To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said.
I didn't even read the rest of your post beyond this sentence.
To understand what Jesus is saying you first have to believe in God.
You cannot clearly confess to this. So then forget about understanding the words of Jesus or helpin ...[text shortened]... ession that you believe in God, forget about helping anyone to understand the words of Jesus Christ.
If you were able to reasonably and logically refute the contents of my post, you would have. But you didn't. Pretty much business as usual for you.
The words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel have little meaning for you and many other Christians.
@thinkofone saidHere is the test not the one you have attempted to create that doesn't agree with the rest of scripture.
I didn't even read the rest of your post beyond this sentence.
If you were able to reasonably and logically refute the contents of my post, you would have. But you didn't. Pretty much business as usual for you.
The words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel have little meaning for you and many other Christians.
2 Corinthians 13
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for. For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
Is Jesus Christ in you?
I will also point out that we are not to regard Christ as in the flesh any longer, this is another of your errors. He has risen from the dead and is sitting next the Father right now.
2 Corinthians 5:15-17 English Standard Version (ESV)
and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Are you in Christ, is Christ in you?
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The words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel have little meaning for you and many other Christians.
If you don't believe in God or are too cowardly to confess to the world that you don't, you can handle the words of Jesus as much as you want.
You don't know what He is speaking and you can help no one with the Bible, Old or New Testament.
Start with where you are with God ... "and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD ..."
If you can't believe in God you can't help yourself or anyone grasp the speaking of Christ.
End of story.
End of English lesson.
End of referring to Strong's Concordance.
End of "C'mon jaywill, play along."
There is hope only if you humble yourself as a little child and turn to believe in God. And that would kill you. So you remain with DARKNESS spiritually - OR a light in you which is the THICKEST darkness.
ToO, I fear that you have locked yourself in unbelief and thrown away the key.
14 Oct 19
@sonship saidClearly neither you nor KJ are able to reasonably and logically deal with the content of my posts. If you were able, you would. Instead you stoop to acts of desperation such as this.
@ThinkOfOne
The words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel have little meaning for you and many other Christians.
If you don't believe in God or are too cowardly to confess to the world that you don't, you can handle the words of Jesus as much as you want.
You don't know what He is speaking and you can help no one with the Bible, Old or New ...[text shortened]... THICKEST darkness.
ToO, I fear that you have locked yourself in unbelief and thrown away the key.
14 Oct 19
@thinkofone saidIf you offered more than I am right, and everyone else, including the whole Bible is wrong we could.
Clearly neither you nor KJ are able to reasonably and logically deal with the content of my posts. If you were able, you would. Instead you stoop to acts of desperation such as this.
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Clearly neither you nor KJ are able to reasonably and logically deal with the content of my posts. If you were able, you would. Instead you stoop to acts of desperation such as this.
That is not the problem. Your logic, your reasoning excludes God. That is the fatal flaw with all your reasoning about the words of the Bible.
You logical treatment of the words of the Bible are that only human beings are, God is irrelevant, unnecessary, non-existent, and the Scripture is only the product of the natural mind in an atheistic existence.
16 Oct 19
@thinkofone said"To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said. "
To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said.
1) The word given as "forgiveness" literally means "FREEdom".
2) In John 6 Jesus also speaks of "eating", "bread", "body/flesh", "drinking" and "blood". wherein Jesus uses the metaphor of "eating flesh", "drinking blood" to refer to " the words that I have spoke ...[text shortened]... throughout about this. Everything points to FREEdom - not forgiveness. FREEdom from committing sin.
Well, yes and the whole Bible is like this! What point do you think I've been making when I say the Bible does not disagree with itself!?
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To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said.
To understand what the Lord Jesus is saying helps to realize forgiveness is freeing too. Among many other benefits of being forgiven by God is being freed from guilt.
1) The word given as "forgiveness" literally means "FREEdom".
I am sure if I look up the Koine Greek in Strong's Concordance for "forgiveness" "forgive" "forgiven" I would find much rich etymology besides - "It means free" .
And forgiveness IS freeing along with many other things.
2) In John 6 Jesus also speaks of "eating", "bread", "body/flesh", "drinking" and "blood". wherein Jesus uses the metaphor of "eating flesh", "drinking blood" to refer to " the words that I have spoken to you".
I have no disagreement about that.
Go argue this maybe with the Catholics who teach "transubstantiation" - that the wafer actually literally turns into the body of Jesus and the wine literally turns into the blood of Jesus - beliefs that I find to be superstitious.
In short, one "eats" and "drinks" His words so that they will abide in Him.
Paul said both to let the word of Christ "dwell in you richly" and to be "nourished up in the words of the faith."
Reference upon request tonight.
3) In John 15 Jesus explains that "abiding" in Him entails "keep[ing] His commandments" (words).
Actually the first thing in abiding in Jesus Christ is to get the revelation that He is the True Vine and that the believer is a branch in Him.
The real way to abide in the resurrected Christ today is firstly to SEE that He is the vine and by believing in Him you are a branch in the vine.
You start there. You NEVER graduate from there.
4) In John 8 Jesus explain that those who "abide in [His] words" will be made "FREE" from committing sin.
I have no problem with that.
So when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6.
Since His words are spirit and are life to abide in His words are to abide in His life.
Of course ToO, though he won't admit it, does not believe that Christ lives today.
Using the phrase "abide in His word" to ToO is just sentimental thoughts towards a dead man.
Reference upon request this evening.
So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [FREEdom from] sins"
There is no need to RESTRICT the translation to only "FREEdom from".
And it would not make much difference.
If you want to read more like the English "freedom" from sins "RELEASED" you could go to Revelation 1:5 which the RcV translates -
"And from Jesus Christ ... to Him who loves us and has RELEASED us from our sins BY HIS BLOOD." (See Revelation 1:5)
Some other English translations:
NIV
" has freed us from our sins by his blood,"
English Standard Version
" has freed us from our sins by his blood"
Berean Study Bible
"has released us from our sins by His blood,"
Berean Literal Bible
"and releasing us from our sins through His blood,"
New American Standard
"and released us from our sins by His blood--"
Christian Standard Bible
"and has set us free from our sins by his blood,"
Contemporary English Version
" and by his blood he set us free from our sins."
Aramiac Bible in Plain English
"and has loosed us from our sins by his blood."
Many English versions say "washed us"
One I see says "bathed us"
Anyway. Jesus' parable of the prodigal son ( or the forgiving father) (Luke 15:11-32) shows the father running and FORGIVING the returned son. He did not just bath him and change his clothes. He fell on his neck and FORGAVE him affectionately saying that he once was dead but now was alive again.
29 Oct 19
@KellyJay Quoting scripture as a justification to buttress your point of view proves absolutely nothing save for the Christian apologetic you are trying to advance. It may resonate with people who identify themselves as 'Christian' but it will not make significant change in anyone else's life. If your quest is to Evangelize, I think you would do better on another forum and directed at people interested in your point of view.
29 Oct 19
@pathtowardwholeness saidWelcome to the forum. You will find in here that many posters seem to believe that posting something, anything, makes it objectively true. This is especially evident with several of the Christian posters here who feel victimised when disagreed with and justified in inappropriate retaliatory behaviour.
@KellyJay Quoting scripture as a justification to buttress your point of view proves absolutely nothing save for the Christian apologetic you are trying to advance. It may resonate with people who identify themselves as 'Christian' but it will not make significant change in anyone else's life. If your quest is to Evangelize, I think you would do better on another forum and directed at people interested in your point of view.
Prepare to be ignored.
29 Oct 19
@pathtowardwholeness saidAnd?
@KellyJay Quoting scripture as a justification to buttress your point of view proves absolutely nothing save for the Christian apologetic you are trying to advance. It may resonate with people who identify themselves as 'Christian' but it will not make significant change in anyone else's life. If your quest is to Evangelize, I think you would do better on another forum and directed at people interested in your point of view.
29 Oct 19
@pathtowardwholeness saidWelcome to the Forums, and RedHotPawn!
@KellyJay Quoting scripture as a justification to buttress your point of view proves absolutely nothing save for the Christian apologetic you are trying to advance. It may resonate with people who identify themselves as 'Christian' but it will not make significant change in anyone else's life. If your quest is to Evangelize, I think you would do better on another forum and directed at people interested in your point of view.