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03 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhat do you mean by His "omnipresent nature"?
And again, fallacious, due to his omnipresent nature. Of course, I could also argue its fallaciousness with respect to God's supposed omnibenevolence (i.e. how can an omnibenevolent, omnipotent creator just sit there and watch evil things happen).
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzactually, didnt adam hide from God after he ate off of the tree? and he came out so God could see him? if God couldnt see him, then hes not omnipresent.
Well, he can't be everywhere and yet completely divorced from proceedings as well. Logically that just doesn't follow.
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomWhat's that? A contradiction in Christian doctorine? Surely not!
actually, didnt adam hide from God after he ate off of the tree? and he came out so God could see him? if God couldnt see him, then hes not omnipresent.
Here's a question for you then. Can God be omnipotent if he isn't omnipresent?
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04 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhy? I can be present in this room but restrict my actions in it. In this case I am present yet "divorced from proceedings".
Well, he can't be everywhere and yet completely divorced from proceedings as well. Logically that just doesn't follow.
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04 Dec 06
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdNo, that's not what anyone is saying, at all.
If I read it right, the xian perspective that the posters are trying to work around to is that propounded by C.S. Lewis in The Problem of Pain. That is, pain is ultimately the thing that drives us to God, it's necessary to point us to Him, etc.
I used to buy it.
04 Dec 06
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KGod has no reason to "get involved in procedings" as He already knows what will happen!
Omnipotence and omnibenevolence do not presuppose any involvement in the proceedings.
Allowing evil to exist because he stepped back after Creation, seems clumsy & sadistic. There is no reason for it to be needed in anyones relationship to God.
You don't say to your girlfriend "no food for the next week, darling. Don't worry - it'll make you love me more. Oh & by the way, the neighbour just killed our daughter - I had the power to stop it, but I'd already stood back."
04 Dec 06
Originally posted by Conrau KGod's thoughts & actions exist outside of time constraints.
What? Say for instance I know my mother is going to be killed by a bu, does that mean I should not try to prevent it?
There is no free will. God has anticipated everything - He has total knowledge.
The only free will that exists is (wrongly) implanted in believers' minds.
They must be following God's plan on pre-destined paths.
The whole argument about evil existing because we have free will is pathetic.
It suggests God cannot predict our actions.
If He can then our free will is irrelevant to the issue of evil. God would have anticipated the existence of evil.
This makes Him either grossly neglegent or psychotic.
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04 Dec 06
Originally posted by SquelchbelchWhat are you talking about? How does knowledge of the future mean I have no free will?
God's thoughts & actions exist outside of time constraints.
There is no free will. God has anticipated everything - He has total knowledge.
The only free will that exists is (wrongly) implanted in believers' minds.
They must be following God's plan on pre-destined paths.
The whole argument about evil existing because we have free will is pathetic ...[text shortened]... ave anticipated the existence of evil.
This makes Him either grossly neglegent or psychotic.
And I never said that evil existed so that we might have free will. I argued that God must contract his inifiniteness in order for creation to exist as independent of God, as something autonomous. Evil was just a consequence of this. And yes, if God is omniscient He would have anticipated evil. But as several other people have already explained this evil could a) be necassary, b) be part of an ultimate plan of perfection, c) eventually compensated for. Someone else volunteered the possibility that God suffering might also bring us closer to God, in which case it falls into b) and c).