Spirituality
29 Jan 08
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesYour post betrays a great deal of faith in pure chance. Unless, of course, you aren't being serious.
You are mistaken. It is not only possible but guaranteed to happen in any experimental formulation in which the monkey is allowed to type an infinite sequence of characters, each with a non-zero probability of being chosen at any given keystroke. This is a very basic consequence of elementary discrete probability theory. A rudimentary genetic algo ...[text shortened]... lar of salt):
http://vlab.infotech.monash.edu.au/simulations/evolution/richard-dawkin-weasel/
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by Jorge BorgesDo you deny this claim: It is not only possible but guaranteed to happen in any experimental formulation in which the monkey is allowed to type an infinite sequence of characters, each with a non-zero probability of being chosen at any given keystroke.
Your post betrays a great deal of faith in pure chance. Unless, of course, you aren't being serious.
If so, you are simply uninformed, and if you persist in rejecting my expert assessment merely because its conclusion makes you uncomfortable, then you are also an idiot.
01 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Jorge BorgesYou clearly have no concept of what 'infinite' means. There's no such thing as 'faith in chance.'
Your post betrays a great deal of faith in pure chance. Unless, of course, you aren't being serious.
There is no 'faith' required. Given an infinite amount of time, a system genuinely producing a
random sequence of letters, will in fact produce every conceivable sequence of letters. It will
take a long time, no doubt, but the 'infinite' part should be the tip off.
Of course, the model proposed by KellyJay (monkeys on a typewriter) doesn't resemble the
evolutionary process at all, because in the evolutionary model, a letter changed to a desirable
state is more inclined to stay in that state because that letter confers greater survivability.
Nemesio
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadqorunvdein seerfvcalpqineqasdlpziundqtplmffghiwanvribms
We do not need random number generators to figure it out. All we need is some very basic mathematics, and the list of starting conditions. For example:
1. What keys are on the typewriter?
2. Are all keys hit with equal frequency (ie completely randomly across the whole keyboard?
3. At what frequency are they being typed.
4. Is the challenge: a) To wri ...[text shortened]... d. To demonstrate this concept, would someone like to type a string of about 50 characters?
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayNot only would "The Hobbit" be produced, it would be produced an infinite number of times.
I recall seeing someone say that X number of monkeys on a key board hitting keys would through random change type out a book or
series of books I now forget which.
With random number generators we should be able to figure out the
odds and put this to a real test by setting up this type of condition and
see if it can really happen. I do not believe it ...[text shortened]... "Good night Moon."
How long before random chance kicks in a writes a book for us?
Kelly
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by NemesioBut 'infinity' is not a real-world variable. In the real world, the chance of the Hobbit arising by pure chance is inconceivably small (an understatement). A finite period of time changes the stakes somewhat, wouldn't you say? What is 13.4 Billion years compared to infinity? How about 700,000 Trillion years compared to infinity? Or 900 Billion Trillion years?
You clearly have no concept of what 'infinite' means. There's no such thing as 'faith in chance.'
There is no 'faith' required. Given an infinite amount of time, a system genuinely producing a
random sequence of letters, will in fact produce every conceivable sequence of letters. It will
take a long time, no doubt, but the 'infinite' part should be th ...[text shortened]... ed to stay in that state because that letter confers greater survivability.
Nemesio
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by Jorge BorgesWell, nor is it realistic to think you're going to get an actual monkey to sit at an actual typewriter and bang on the keys. Presumably the point of KellyJay's post was not to enquire about the feasibility of actually setting a monkey before a typewriter and observing whether he types out the Hobbit.
But 'infinity' is not a real-world variable.
Rather, I presume that what is of interest is the abstract idea embodied by the colorfully described thought experiment that a non-intelligent stochastic process can generate output that is isomorphic to output normally associated with creative intelligence. To the extent that this is in fact the point of interest, discrete probability theory can be used to model and analyze the problem and produce objective results regarding the possibility, certainty, or likelihood of such outcomes.
02 Feb 08
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioAfter a few hundred years I could conceivably see some typing monkey produce a portion of, say a play by Shakespear.
You clearly have no concept of what 'infinite' means. There's no such thing as 'faith in chance.'
There is no 'faith' required. Given an infinite amount of time, a system genuinely producing a
random sequence of letters, will in fact produce every conceivable sequence of letters. It will
take a long time, no doubt, but the 'infinite' part should be th ed to stay in that state because that letter confers greater survivability.
Nemesio
Like this:
[b]"To be or not to be, that is the 38pKISH 623asda fD sdnafq3 a agf0u2 q3765wqt 345 SSwnkl !" [/B]
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayAgain with the saltation.
I recall seeing someone say that X number of monkeys on a key board hitting keys would through random change type out a book or
series of books I now forget which.
With random number generators we should be able to figure out the
odds and put this to a real test by setting up this type of condition and
see if it can really happen. I do not believe it ...[text shortened]... "Good night Moon."
How long before random chance kicks in a writes a book for us?
Kelly
Not how evolution works. Pack it in Kelly, you've been embarrassed on this issue enough times already.
20 Feb 08
Originally posted by Green PaladinNo. His typing is not random - even if his spelling is. In fact we could say that his intelligence and not his randomness is what constrains him from being able to type out a given Work.
Sometimes KellyJay's spelling is so monstrously appalling, so hideously egregious, as to make me wonder whether he is, in fact, a monkey bashing away at a typewriter.
So my question is: Given infinity, could KellyJay type out the entire Origin of Species?
His argument was:
Randomness does not produce any given pattern. Only intelligence can produce some patterns. Therefore certain patterns are indicative of intelligence.
He was wrong.
The truth is closer to:
Randomness can produce any pattern, where as intelligence tends to produce only a subset of possible patterns. However, since many processes - even trivial ones - also produce a subset of possible patterns, it is incorrect to conclude that a higher frequency of a subset of possible patterns is indicative of intelligence.
20 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJaySomething like this has been done; I don't remember the name of the person who did it, but there was a computer program which generated random text and applied "natural selection" by keeping text which had letter frequency distribution close to English and throwing other text out; lines from Hamlet were produced.
I recall seeing someone say that X number of monkeys on a key board hitting keys would through random change type out a book or
series of books I now forget which.
With random number generators we should be able to figure out the
odds and put this to a real test by setting up this type of condition and
see if it can really happen. I do not believe it "Good night Moon."
How long before random chance kicks in a writes a book for us?
Kelly
20 Feb 08
Originally posted by ChronicLeakyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program
Something like this has been done; I don't remember the name of the person who did it, but there was a computer program which generated random text and applied "natural selection" by keeping text which had letter frequency distribution close to English and throwing other text out; lines from Hamlet were produced.
20 Feb 08
Originally posted by ChronicLeakyHe was not talking about the inclusion of Natural Selection like processes. He wanted it totally random. He simply does not believe that a random generator can, in time produce an unlikely series. However, since he has remained rather quiet on the subject since then, I suppose he either doesn't believe his own claims or has been enlightened.
Something like this has been done; I don't remember the name of the person who did it, but there was a computer program which generated random text and applied "natural selection" by keeping text which had letter frequency distribution close to English and throwing other text out; lines from Hamlet were produced.