Why he is dishonest.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No. This quote is a lot like your Pascal's Wager website. Someone made it up because it sounds good and promotes their idea of what my God is like. You cannot describe my God in terms of Man. In fact, you do not have the slightest clue what my God is like because He is not your God. Describing the Creator in such flippant terms is blasphemy. You can c ...[text shortened]... ds completely stupid to you. I'm sorry if I have disappointed you.

Tell him, ag sorry tell it Suzianne (I am refering to googlefudge when I said it)

I stand fully behind you and agree with what you are saying.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You sell yourself short... his arguments 'seem logical' because they are, that you can identify that shows that
you are indeed capable of following a good logical argument (unlike some I could mention on this site).
You can't refute his argument because his argument is irrefutable (unless you can prove gods existence).
His argument is logically sound ...[text shortened]... don't have to worry about all that nonsense, because you realise it isn't real.

You're going around in circles again and your arguments are becoming somewhat boring at this stage.

There is no way that you can proof that you found the truth even it was right in front of you. You only believe truth by science and nothing more, yet you can not say "we all like the truth" as in reality you were not a Christian or religious before. Thus it is easy for me to say you like half the truth or actually form my point of view, you like the wrong truth.

Who are you to lecture us anything religiously if you were not once a man/woman of the faith? And how can you proof that i didn't once belief in evolution and found the FSM theory in it thus now a Christian?

Originally posted by jaywill

Don't you get it? You will NEVER, EVER convert people to your faith by the "yes he is, no he isn't" line of argument.

I don't "get" what on earth you mean by "blind faith".

I feel the veil has been taken away and sight has been given to the eyes of my heart through faith in Christ.

It definitely is not "blind faith" but a faith f ...[text shortened]... ectively aloof are appreciated. A magnanimus person can be constructive at times.

Faith is "blind" besause, despite what you may have persuaded yourself, there CAN be no proof, one way or the other. Therefore, all faith is a leap in the dark, hence blind. I know, from personal experience, how comforting it is to have faith. You live in a nice warm fluffy feeling and "feel" the Holy Spirit working through you. In my experience it's an illusion. The human brain is brilliant at persuading itself. All these positive thinking and self-assertion courses are testament to that. I am very happy for you to be born again - it's a wonderful experience, and very therapeutic, so I don't want to burst your bubble, but it is an illusion. That doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, I suppose.

Originally posted by googlefudge
That isn't even remotely true, people can and do change their opinions based on arguments.
Not overnight, and seldom during the argument, but it can and does happen.
Both ways.

In some cases even the discovery that there are people who don't actually believe in god
and that you can actually question your beliefs is enough to start a process that c ...[text shortened]... g is insulting to everyone in the
conversation.
If you don't like it, go some place else.

Yes, they can and do change their opinions, but not, as I said, in this "yes he is, no he isn't " type of childish playground argument. The very fact that you accept the possibility of being able to change one's mind simply proves my point that there is no proof one way or the other. Just blind faith. And you can't justify blind faith. People try, but they tie themselves up in all sorts of ridiculous mental knots in the process. The duel in the sun approach is silly.

Originally posted by Nicksten
You're going around in circles again and your arguments are becoming somewhat boring at this stage.

There is no way that you can proof that you found the truth even it was right in front of you. You only believe truth by science and nothing more, yet you can not say "we all like the truth" as in reality you were not a Christian or religious before. Thus ...[text shortened]... that i didn't once belief in evolution and found the FSM theory in it thus now a Christian?

And you still don't get that I am not CLAIMING to have the truth.The position of atheism is that
there is not sufficient (or any) evidence to be able to claim that there is a god or gods.
This isn't a truth claim it's analysing religions truth claims and deciding that they are not yet proved.

And science doesn't claim to make 'truth' claims either.

So straw man, you are perpetually arguing against positions I don't hold.

Try asking me what I believe or don't believe, listening to my responses, and then responding to that.
Rather than making up what you think I believe, ignoring my responses, and responding to your own
straw man arguments.

I don't believe in evolution, I accept evolutionary theory as the current best explanation of species diversity.
I don't believe in the big bang theory of the standard model, I accept the standard model as the current best
description of how the universe works and came to be, while also acknowledging that it is incomplete and or
incorrect.

As for your last 2 questions I ask that you restate them more fully because I don't know what it is you are asking.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Faith is "blind" besause, despite what you may have persuaded yourself, there CAN be no proof, one way or the other. Therefore, all faith is a leap in the dark, hence blind. I know, from personal experience, how comforting it is to have faith. You live in a nice warm fluffy feeling and "feel" the Holy Spirit working through you. In my experience it's an il ...[text shortened]... le, but it is an illusion. That doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, I suppose.

Wrong. if god existed it could prove it's existence categorically with trivial ease.

It's not that there could be no proof but simply that there isn't any proof.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Yes, they can and do change their opinions, but not, as I said, in this "yes he is, no he isn't " type of childish playground argument. The very fact that you accept the possibility of being able to change one's mind simply proves my point that there is no proof one way or the other. Just blind faith. And you can't justify blind faith. People try, but they ...[text shortened]... all sorts of ridiculous mental knots in the process. The duel in the sun approach is silly.

I am not making childish playground arguments.

And my position is the only rational one in the absence of proof, which is why I hold it and it is what I am arguing.

You are chastising me for making the same argument you are.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Wrong. if god existed it could prove it's existence categorically with trivial ease.

It's not that there could be no proof but simply that there isn't any proof.

You cannot say this.. It is a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I am not making childish playground arguments.

And my position is the only rational one in the absence of proof, which is why I hold it and it is what I am arguing.

You are chastising me for making the same argument you are.

"rational" and "religious discussion" are oxymoronic.
I am not getting at you, googlefudge, I agree with much of what you say.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I am not making childish playground arguments.

And my position is the only rational one in the absence of proof, which is why I hold it and it is what I am arguing.

You are chastising me for making the same argument you are.

You read the evolutionary science books because you hope there is proof
in them that there is not God. We that believe in God read the Holy
Scriptures, for in them we know there is truth, life, and the light that
illuminates the proof of God in what we see He has made.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Faith is "blind" besause, despite what you may have persuaded yourself, there CAN be no proof, one way or the other. Therefore, all faith is a leap in the dark, hence blind. I know, from personal experience, how comforting it is to have faith. You live in a nice warm fluffy feeling and "feel" the Holy Spirit working through you. In my experience it's an il le, but it is an illusion. That doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, I suppose.

Faith is "blind" besause, despite what you may have persuaded yourself, there CAN be no proof, one way or the other.

As far as Christ is concerned, I definitely believe that I possess enough evidence to trust that I am on the right track.

To have absolute "proof" of anything requires that one know all that can possibly be known - omniscience.

I have confimation that I am on the right track to trust my life to the Lord Jesus.

Therefore, all faith is a leap in the dark, hence blind.

I recall the night that I stepped out to receive Jesus Christ. I might agree with you that it was like a leap or at least stepping off of a ledge.

I would not agree with you that it was a leap into the dark. There was a BIG HAND and a BIG HEART there waiting to receive me.

As one without experience you might observe and muse "Boy. That is a leap into the dark".

Yes, to finally intrust your life to Jesus is a step off of a ledge. But it is not a step off into an abyss or into the dark.

Are there any Christians here who would agree with me on this ?

I know, from personal experience, how comforting it is to have faith. You live in a nice warm fluffy feeling and "feel" the Holy Spirit working through you.

Well, I would say that maturing in the Christian life is in fact NOT always having a warm feeling. Like a pilot who can only see clouds out of his front plane window, eventually one has to learn to fly by radar.

No, through some experiences, I had only His word. And there was not "warm fluffy feeling"


Did you read Second Corinthians where Paul speaks of his trials? He said at one point he and his co-workers dispaired of life. No, we do NOT always see the apostle Paul having a warm fuzzy in his trials and tribulations.

Your comment is an insult and reflects perhaps the parable of the seed that fell on a rock. When the sun came up its root withered immediately.

My experiences with Christ have been designed by the Father to drive the roots of my faith down, down, deeper and deeper. I have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

Were you some kind of quitter ? Were you a disciple who shrunk back in disappointment because of a hardship ?

I have met a number of such people. They often become very bitter. You cannot postpone forever the need for the Father to take you through some difficult trials in order to allow the roots of faith to go deeper.

In my experience it's an illusion. The human brain is brilliant at persuading itself.

Tell me when this stark reality of Jesus NOT being Son of God is suppose to hit me like a ton of bricks. I haven't had such a let down yet after over 36 or so years.

So when am I suppose to wake up and realize the bitter truth - " Ahhh, Jesus is not Lord afterall ? "

I mean all those first century Christians had such a fluffy time in those arenas as lions tore them to shred. All those warm fuzzy feelings disappeared and the faith died out.

How could those warm fuzzies stand against the persecution of Nero and the Roman Empire ? They had something deeper than that. And they said

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the saints."

If you were brought up on a inadaquate and superfiscial presentation of the Gospel don't blame the rest of us who want to follow Jesus. I am very sorry that no older brother took better care of you. I am sorry that when you hit difficulties no older saint was able to shepherd you.

I have had disappointments. But I cannot get OUT of me the ONE who came to live in me. And once I am born again I cannot be UN-born again any more than I can be un-born from my natural parents.

Anyway the Christ of resurrection is not the same as the tooth fairy or your teddy bear.

All these positive thinking and self-assertion courses are testament to that. I am very happy for you to be born again -

I am very fortunate. That is correct.

This is the thing which keeps me telling others. When I think on the fact that of all people I, even I, have the gift of eternal life, I am burdened that OTHERS MUST receive the opportunity to receive Jesus like I did.

Thanks for feeling good for me. I am really eternally bless with Christ. You are right.

it's a wonderful experience, and very therapeutic, so I don't want to burst your bubble, but it is an illusion. That doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, I suppose.

And you came here to the Spirituality forum to reassure yourself that Christ really is not Lord ?

Stick around for awhile. I think it is your bubble that is about to get burst.
You're a deceived person.

it's a wonderful experience, and very therapeutic, so I don't want to burst your bubble, but it is an illusion. That doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, I suppose.

Of course ! It doesn't really matter to you !


There is such comfort in leaving yourself a back door to sneak out just in case your arguments don't work, eh ?

Originally posted by RJHinds
You read the evolutionary science books because you hope there is proof
in them that there is not God. We that believe in God read the Holy
Scriptures, for in them we know there is truth, life, and the light that
illuminates the proof of God in what we see He has made.

Evolution does not disprove god, that is not it's point nor purpose or unintended consequence.

Evolution simply explains the diversity of life, and doesn't say anything about the existence or otherwise of god.

I read science books/papers because I am interested in how the universe works.
When I am reading about science god is not what I am thinking about.
The question as to whether something is evidence for or against god doesn't even enter my mind.

I don't believe it's possible to disprove the existence of god, and certainly nobody has done it.
Which is why I am an Agnostic Atheist, and not a Gnostic Atheist.

Evolution doesn't disprove god, which is why most of the people who accept it as true are Christians.
However Evolution does provide a scientific (factual) explanation for how the diversity of life came about
that doesn't require god and thus provides a scientific alternative to the nonsense of creationism.

However you don't have to be a creationist to be a theist, and you don't have to be a creationist to be a Christian.

So you are (as always) wrong on all counts.

And you STILL can't make a post that deals with what I actually say and think instead of you making up what I think.

Are you capable of making an argument that isn't a straw man?

What is so hard about taking me at my word as to what I believe.
Precisely what I believe has no impact on your beliefs so why make it up?

You don't have to agree with me to be able to acknowledge what it is I actually say I think.
Are you so insecure in your faith that you have to distort and lie about my beliefs to protect yours?

Originally posted by Pianoman1
You cannot say this.. It is a matter of opinion.

I just did say that, and anything that can't even prove it's own existence even if it wanted to
doesn't qualify as a deity.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I just did say that, and anything that can't even prove it's own existence even if it wanted to
doesn't qualify as a deity.

🙂