11 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerOk, this is a start, I guess. Could you elaborate a bit more?
Jesus rose from the dead.
For instance...
Is the resurection the only reason you believe? Why do you think it is true? What does Jesus' resurection mean to you? Do you thin the resurection is more important than the crucifixtion? why?
TheSkipper
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11 Aug 05
Originally posted by TheSkipperOK. I cannot go into all the details, but there are plenty of good books that are written about his resurection. There are plenty of people that have gone out to prove its a fluke and whilest doing the research, they themselves have become believers and had their lives radically changed.
Ok, this is a start, I guess. Could you elaborate a bit more?
For instance...
Is the resurection the only reason you believe? Why do you think it is true? What does Jesus' resurection mean to you? Do you think the resurection is more important than the crucifixtion? why?
TheSkipper
I think the crucifixtion is also very imporatant. The fact that He suffferd on the cross to bear our sins. However, the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven means that He is indeed the son of God and that He defeated death and Satan, and He has gone to prepare a place for those that are willing to come to Him and have their sins washed away with His precious blood.
11 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2becker
OK. I cannot go into all the details
Why not? There's no time limit here.
but there are plenty of good books that are written about his resurection.
Can you provide titles, links etc. Have you read them? Please give a rundown as part of your beliefs.
There are plenty of people that have gone out to prove its a fluke and whilest doing the research, they themselves have become believers and had their lives radically changed.
Again provide links, evidence this is true etc. Also, please explain why you think this happened and what it means to you. Also, consider that it is possible that there are other explanations for this happening other than the glory of god, and please also note that it is not proof of god's existence, though it may yield light on certain threads of conversation.
Be thorough about what you say and how you say it and you will have a lot more interesting conversations about the subject. Your continual attempt to save us will probably be better respcted if you think, debate and act in a sensible, thorough way.
I think the crucifixtion is also very imporatant. The fact that He suffferd on the cross to bear our sins. However, the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven means that He is indeed the son of God and that He defeated death and Satan, and He has gone to prepare a place for those that are willing to come to Him and have their sins washed away with His precious blood.
Do you see thatsince Jesus' ressurecetion is in doubt, it deos not necessarily mean that he defeated death/Satan. Also, don't just say this and expect us to believe you, explain why you believe this and give evidence you think supports it.
11 Aug 05
2 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerOk, getting better. I'm getting a small peek into your belief system. This sort of approach is going to work wonders for your reputation around here and then you can use that reputation to be taken seriously when you want to talk with someone about what Jesus has done in your life.
OK. I cannot go into all the details, but there are plenty of good books that are written about his resurection. There are plenty of people that have gone out to prove its a fluke and whilest doing the research, they themselves have becom ...[text shortened]... im and have their sins washed away with His precious blood.
It still needs a little work though. Here are some more suggestions.
When you have time, I suggest you do go into details. Unless you have already written a book about what all this means TO YOU then no book is going to help me understand YOU. You see, Christianity... any religion as far as I'm aware only exists because of individuals (like you and me and JoeFist and Kirksey etc etc) in other words, people. That is why it is so important to talk about yourself and what you feel when you want to share your beliefs. I would encourage you to think hard on what all this stuff really means to you and post what you come up with here. There are plenty of people, including myself, in this forum that will be glad to help you flesh it out.
Your second paragraph is good. It clearly contains some things that are important to you and reveals a little of your feelings about the death and ressurection. However, try to avoid using the Christian cliches like "His precious blood" and "sins washed away". I'm not questioning the validity of these statements just questioning their effectiveness on your intended audience. Good rule of thumb, in fact, always write to your audience!! Very important, that. Anyway, cliches like those and "party line" style witnessing only works on the most receptive of audiences and I think we can agree that RHP is not that.
Continue to talk about why you believe and what is important to you. Make yourself a real person to all of your detractors because at the moment you are a caricature in thier eyes and you will never earn their ear until you change that.
Hope this helps,
TheSkipper
11 Aug 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerIslam believes otherwise..
Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus was never crucified (do I hear an uproar of angry cries...?? Apologies..)
He was hiding at the time of the crucifixion. God made a look-a-like of him from one of the baddies, and this imposter was the one who got the nails.
Jesus was seen just few days after the crucifixion, then God, for Jesus' safety, rose him to the Heavens..
Hence the concept of the Resurrection. They thought he was dead.. then couple days or so later they spotted him alive.
Judaism and Islam still believe that the Messayah will come to salvage human kind..
When he descends back from the Heavens..
He will.
11 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloHey LJ,
okay...this is a step in the right direction.
what evidence do you have for your claim that jesus rose from the dead?
I appreciate the question you pose to dj2. It is a certainly valid question and one I have wrestled with over and over again. However, if you would induldge me, dj2 and I are attempting to flesh out WHAT he believes rather than why. I do suspect 'why' will get covered to some degree in this thread but right now if we could all help dj to focus only on WHAT he believes it will be easier to reach understanding in the other threads where we discuss the question of why.
Dj2 has shown great enthusiasm for stating the WHY of his beliefs (with special focus on "why you should to"😉 but the WHAT has been seriously lacking and I think it would benefit us all to find out more about the WHAT.
So to sum up. Your question is valid and I completely understand why you would ask it. However, in an effort to keep this thread from getiing bogged down in things we have already been over I would certainly appreciate it if we could use this thread to gain understanding of dj's beliefs. Hopefully leading to a higher quality debate concerning your question and others like it in the future.
Hmmm...it seems my tone is a bit condescending. Please understand it is not my intent. It is not easy to keep a Spirituality Forum thread focused and I feel my being precise in what I would like to see will help the success of this adventure.
TheSkipper
11 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerWhile I agree with the consensus here that this is a much more refreshing way to enter into a spiritual discussion/debate, I still don't believe you have answered your own question: Why do you believe?
Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus rose from the dead is what you believe. It does not answer the question why.
I will explain what I mean by my own condensed answer to your question as why I believe what I believe:
I am technically Jewish but I had twelve years of a Catholic education in the San Francisco Bay Area. I am somewhat familiar with some passages in the Bible but not extensively. Without really understanding it, as a kid, I used to say my prayers because I thought it was the thing to do.
When I was ten years old, my mentally disturbed mother ended her life with sleeping pills. My parents were divorced at the time and I was living with my father. Shortly after while in school taking one of my required Catechism classes, I discovered that suicide was considered a mortal sin and if you committed a mortal sin you go to Hell.
At that moment, I came to the realization for me that there was something wrong with this. My mother was nuts but she was sweet to me and I refuse to buy into the notion that she is rotting in eternity because of something selfish and stupid she did.
The Batman avatar I have is a little more symbolic to me that it would appear. My favorite quote in the world is from a Batman graphic novel and, for me, nothing rings more true:
The world makes sense only when you force it to.
I believe that and I guess that's why I don't believe that God rewards the "good" and punishes the "bad". You honestly believe that children are starving in India and Niger because they have not accepted Christ and I don't. I am not condemning you for that but I can't even contemplate that nor would I want to. Anyway that is why I believe what I believe...sorry for rambling.
11 Aug 05
Originally posted by TheSkipperHi Skipper,
Hey LJ,
I appreciate the question you pose to dj2. It is a certainly valid question and one I have wrestled with over and over again. However, if you would induldge me, dj2 and I are attempting to flesh out WHAT he believes rather than why. I do suspect 'why' will get covered to some degree in this thread but right now if we could all help dj to f ...[text shortened]... ing precise in what I would like to see will help the success of this adventure.
TheSkipper
I wrote all of what I wrote before I could read this so sorry for not sticking to your intent.
11 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by TheSkipperokay, i see what you are driving at. it's clear that he must believe more than just 'jesus rose from the dead'. after all, he has started many a thread in recent memory with the express intention of trying to demonstrate that everyday people can and do rise from the dead (allegedly with fresh knowledge of the afterlife, but that is beside the point). so if Joe Shmo, who has a heart attack from eating too many buffalo wings and cheese fries, can 'rise from the dead', then i fail to see how rising from the dead, in and of itself, can elevate jesus to any more status than Joe Shmo in dj2's own mind.
Hey LJ,
I appreciate the question you pose to dj2. It is a certainly valid question and one I have wrestled with over and over again. However, if you would induldge me, dj2 and I are attempting to flesh out WHAT he believes rather t ...[text shortened]... ke to see will help the success of this adventure.
TheSkipper
i understand where you are coming from Skipper, and i think you have a good plan. i take no offense to your post. i'll cease and desist at least temporarily. (i also edited my former post to be more accommodating.)
11 Aug 05
Originally posted by Joe FistOriginally posted by Joe Fist
While I agree with the consensus here that this is a much more refreshing way to enter into a spiritual discussion/debate, I still don't believe you have answered your own question: Why do you believe?
[b]Jesus rose from the dead is what you believe. It does not answer the question why.
I will explain what I mean by my own condens ...[text shortened]... ate that nor would I want to. Anyway that is why I believe what I believe...sorry for rambling.[/b]
When I was ten years old, my mentally disturbed mother ended her life with sleeping pills. My parents were divorced at the time and I was living with my father. Shortly after while in school taking one of my required Catechism classes, I discovered that suicide was considered a mortal sin and if you committed a mortal sin you go to Hell.
From the Catechism:
"Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."
Just thought you might want to know.
11 Aug 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerThanks. Sincerely.
Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]When I was ten years old, my mentally disturbed mother ended her life with sleeping pills. My parents were divorced at the time and I was living with my father. Shortly after while in school taking one of my required Catechism classes, I discovered that suicide was considered a mortal sin and if you committed ...[text shortened]... urch prays for persons who have taken their own lives."
Just thought you might want to know.
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12 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by StarrmanA good starter might be 'The case for Christ' by Lee Strobel.
Originally posted by dj2becker
OK. I cannot go into all the details
Why not? There's no time limit here.
but there are plenty of good books that are written about his resurection.
Can you provide titles, links ...[text shortened]... lain why you believe this and give evidence you think supports it.[/b]
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12 Aug 05
Originally posted by TheSkipperYea, thanks for the post. I'll sure bring it on when I get the time. At the moment I'm rather busy though...
Ok, getting better. I'm getting a small peek into your belief system. This sort of approach is going to work wonders for your reputation around here and then you can use that reputation to be taken seriously when you want to talk with someone about what Jesus has done in your life.
It still needs a little work though. Here are some more suggestions ...[text shortened]... eyes and you will never earn their ear until you change that.
Hope this helps,
TheSkipper