30 Jan 11
Originally posted by sonhouseDo let us know after Judgment Day how this is working out for you. On second thought, you won't have to. Enjoy the "wailing and gnashing of teeth".
So a book written by men, and only men, well, a couple of women got there accidentally but mainly by men and for sure no god involved, religious people have supreme arrogance to assume they know the heart of a non-revealing god. All you have is a book. That's all you have is a book.
Why didn't your god come down to us lowly humans 100,000 years ago when ...[text shortened]... billion people on Earth know anything about any god. Men made gods not the other way round.
30 Jan 11
Originally posted by KellyJayBut not in mine. Clearly we have very different understandings of justice and morality. I do not believe evil inherently requires punishment. I fail to see what purpose it serves. I understand punishment in the context of human society, but only because of specific properties of human society that would not, as far as I am aware, apply to God and angels.
A being and a race bent upon evil the flames of Hell a just recompense in my opinion.
30 Jan 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell we do not view good and evil the same way, you may not feel evil requires
But not in mine. Clearly we have very different understandings of justice and morality. I do not believe evil inherently requires punishment. I fail to see what purpose it serves. I understand punishment in the context of human society, but only because of specific properties of human society that would not, as far as I am aware, apply to God and angels.
punishment. Why wouldn't good and evil apply to God and angels?
Kelly
30 Jan 11
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't see why evil and good wouldn't apply to God and angels, I simply don't think punishment for evil makes any sense without extenuating circumstances.
Well we do not view good and evil the same way, you may not feel evil requires
punishment. Why wouldn't good and evil apply to God and angels?
Kelly
In human society, punishment serves two basic purposes:
1. As a deterrent.
2. Revenge (a feeling we get which has come about due to evolution).
Imprisonment serves two purposes, punishment and enforced prevention of repeat offences.
There is really no moral argument that I know of for purpose 2.
Purpose 1. can not apply when repeat offences are not possible, or enforced prevention is possible.
30 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouse===========================
If hell is not the result of religion why does your god want to send people there forever and ever to burn and burn, etc.?
Also your god is supposedly omniscient, then it stands to reason your god already knew before someone was born whether or not that person would 'accept your lord'.
In that case it knows already who is destined for your hell and who ...[text shortened]... hy?
This is just the silliest excuse for a religion I have ever heard. Rule by fear. nice.
If hell is not the result of religion why does your god want to send people there forever and ever to burn and burn, etc.?
===========================
What I read was that God desired all men to be saved. And not only does God desire all men to be saved but that they would in addition come to the full knowledge of the truth.
" ... our Savior God, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." ( See 1 Timothy 2:3,4)
So when I substitute your name in place of "all men", I read ... " ... our Savior God, who desires [sonhouse] to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth."
Rather then God wanting to punish man I see "desires" the opposite, inlcuding for you.
===========================
Also your god is supposedly omniscient, then it stands to reason your god already knew before someone was born whether or not that person would 'accept your lord'.
============================
It may be that God knows what each person's decision will be. He has not told you has He ?
Has God told you what your decision will be? I am pretty sure you have not heard a word from God about that.
So from my persective and your perspective, we have no idea, and it is decision up to the freedom of our own choice.
You don't know that you will not finally decide who you call "your god" will not one day you embrace also as your "Savior God" as Paul and I would say.
Maybe God knows. But you do not know. So you have the freedom of your deciding will at least to go to God and pray about the matter.
At any rate there are so many passages indicating the Father's intense desire to save sinners that I see very little ground for a thought that He wants to condemn you.
Why should I imagine the slanderous worst in the presence of such teachings of His love ?
==============================
In that case it knows already who is destined for your hell and who is not.
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Whether God's foreknowledge is His predestination is a philsophical debate that centries have not resolved. I don't think His foreknowledge is anyone's pre-destination.
Now if God TOLD you what the outcome is to be, that might be different. Again, from our standpoint the freedom of choice is ours.
Tell me that the freedom of choice is not yours ? In the New Testament one man cried out to Jesus "I believe, help my unbelief" .
If God would not reject a person who confesses that he still comes with "many a conflict, many a doubt" as the song says, then He will receive one who has doubts. We can still ask the Lord to help our unbelief.
Look carefully at the lyrics to the old hymn Just As I Am by Charlotte Elliot in 1835.
Please read these lyrics http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/u/justasam.htm
The "burning" may be a symbol of unfullfilled thirst for God in eternity.
But WHY curiously desire to find out ? That is what truly makes no sense sonhouse.
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, Thy love unknown
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
Here for a season, then above,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
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30 Jan 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell, not quite off topic, but basically I have always felt that God letting all of this
I don't see why evil and good wouldn't apply to God and angels, I simply don't think punishment for evil makes any sense without extenuating circumstances.
In human society, punishment serves two basic purposes:
1. As a deterrent.
2. Revenge (a feeling we get which has come about due to evolution).
Imprisonment serves two purposes, punishment and en ...[text shortened]... e 1. can not apply when repeat offences are not possible, or enforced prevention is possible.
play out where evil reveals itself for what it is and shows what it is willing to do is
one of the main reasons why things are the way they are. Punishment just
because isn't a righteous act at all, but for crimes done, yes...and if evil is not only
guilty of crimes but is more than willing to do more damage if possible,
punishment is just for as long as evil and all that would cause it would be around,
in my opinion. Basically, you cannot serve a small amount of time in an eternal
Kingdom just to let out to do it again.
Kelly
30 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneWhy would an all-powerful 'god' want us to all 'repent' unless he doesn't want any of us to “sin”? And if 'he' does not want any of us to “sin”, then why would he give us any 'free will' at all?
This would go against the concept of free will. We have free will so we can never claim that we had no choice. God does not want puppets.
If such a 'god' existed and was all-knowing then he would surely know that we would not need to 'repent' if we had no free will so it would make sense if such a 'god' would want to make us all “puppets” as you say; or else not bother to make us at all.
if you had the power to, why would you want to want to give some hairy smelly apes on an insignificant planet free will if you know that giving them free will would inevitably result in many of them do beastly things to each other that greatly angers you and which you strongly disapprove of and then demand that all those nasty “sinning” apes which you created by giving them free will ('created' because they would not be nasty “sinning” apes if you had NOT given them free will so you would be the cause of their “sinning” because it is inevitable that some will sin as the result of you giving them free will) that they all repent for their sins? If you don't want them to “sin” and you are all-powerful, then why would you want to give them the power to sin by giving them free will?
If you strongly object to any of those apes taking certain choices, why would you not want at the very least restrict their 'choices' to benign “non-sinning” ones such as giving each one a choice of what its favourite colour is or what cloths to wear etc? -I mean, you could claim that that would not be true “free will” if you want to but, whatever you choose to call it, it can only make sense for you to want to give them only benign “non-sinning” choices rather than allow choices that you would be angered by and strongly object to if taken -right?
30 Jan 11
Originally posted by KellyJayBut does such punishment serve any purpose? Is it something you believe is inherently necessary, or right? Is it just one of those facts about the universe you know to be true but can't be explained? Or can it be explained?
Punishment just because isn't a righteous act at all, but for crimes done, yes...
and if evil is not only guilty of crimes but is more than willing to do more damage if possible, punishment is just for as long as evil and all that would cause it would be around, in my opinion.
Are we talking prevention (such as incarceration), or punishment here? I understand prevention. If God, for example made hell an inescapable paradise quite separate from heaven, then I would understand. But it seems, from all description, that there is a matter of 'hard labor' added in for which I do not understand the necessity.
30 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by vishvahetuYou forgot the fourth.
True......the sinner suffers and the sinless suffers, but the suffering of the sinner is one hundred fold.
Three types of suffering....
1. Adhyatmika.....suffering from ones own body and mind.
2. Adhibhautika......suffering from other living entities.
3. Adhidaivika........suffering from natural calamities.
vishvahetuika....suffering from brainwashing.