Why Is There Belief in the Divinity of Jesus?

Originally posted by jaywill
Why are you so deceived about the power and Person of Jesus the Son of God ?

The experience of salvation is not for a special elite. The intimate knowledge and fellowship with Christ is opened to all who will repent and be forgiven of thier sins, and who would receive Christ into their heart.

Honestly,, I have no idea what you are talking about.

What is "salvattion?" From what?

Receive Christ into my heart? Is it the case then that all Christians who do that never experience heart disease or a heart attack? When Christ comes into you heart, does he bring some tools or something to keep it working okay? If not, what's the use?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why do people accept, without evidence, as fact that a human being called Jesus was conceived by the union of the deity of monotheism and a virgin human woman?"

Why? Without evidence? This is a tricky question. It leaves me in a position of explaining how I can believe in the existence of God. It is then assumed, since you don't perceive any evide faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. :'([/b]

>>Why? Without evidence? This is a tricky question. It leaves me in a position of explaining how I can believe in the existence of God. It is then assumed, since you don't perceive any evidence, that such evidence does not exist. So then, when I give evidence, whatever that might be, it isn't accepted as evidence. >>

Try me. Don't assume what I will or will not perceive as valid. Just give me your evidence.

Just answer the question without quoting someone else or a book. Why do you believe? Don't worry about convincing me. I'm not going to argue with you about your faith -- you are entitled to it.

I'm not stating a proposition that can be valid or not -- I'm asking a question - just tell me what you think.

You say: faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now we're getting somewhere. That's a pretty good proposition to think about.

Take a look at Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning. He says the search for the meaning of life is personal. Related to that, I believe that he was suggesting that to endeavor to explain it to anyone else is fruitless. He says:

Referring to the power of feelings: "Feelings can be much more sensitive than reason can ever be sensible."

Regarding each person's success in finding meaning in life: "There is no doubt that meaning must be found and cannot be given. Least of all can it be given by psychiatrists." When I read this I mentally added "or priests" at the end of that.

Related to that, Mr. Frankl states later that belief in God simply cannot be commanded. I can't order someone to really laugh, I have to tell them a joke. Similarly, a priest can't tell me to believe — he has to live out the life in which he's suggesting I believe , which when analyzed suggests that he should be doing exactly the opposite of what he does in religion.

Humans have a ``spiritual unconscious,'' according to Frankl, and each person has a latent intuition and yearning for the transcendent, and that this is often activated when a person must deal with the ``tragic triad--pain, guilt and death.''

Frankl's notion of faith is black and white; he states, ``I personally think that either belief in God is unconditional or is not belief at all. If it is unconditional, it will stand and face the fact that six million died in the Nazi holocaust,'' as if belief could never coexist with doubt, as if any theology could ``stand and face'' the shattering reality of mechanistic mass murder.

So, Frankl doesn't answer the question for me.

Stop hemming and hawing. What's your answer?

Why do I ask? To scoff at you? No - though I will use humor a lot, it isn't meant to upset you. I use it to avoid upsetting myself.
I am asking these questions because I lost my only son in August 2007.

Now there's something I don't find faith particularly useful in addressing.

He's gone. No longer exists as he did - his consciousness is no more - the atoms and energy of which he was made still exist and have changed in ways I prefer not to think about. But his mind, his personality, his smile, his laugh, his love -- none of these are available to me and never again shall be.

Somehow I don't find anything real helpful in a lot of stuff some folks wrote thousands of years ago. And I am not willing to assume anything someone else is going to tell me is the case. Fruitless to try.

So I'm not seeking to be convinced of anything or convince you of anything.

I'm just curious. How can anyone face a reality such as I do and simply assume facts not in evidence? How is that of any use at all?

We live in a cold, hard, indifferent universe in which we are as insignificant on the cosmic and geologic scales as the smallest ant compared with the planet Jupiter -- it is a bitter pill, but there it is.

And it is death -- finally. But I would have preferred not to have outlived my only son -- strikes me as not the best sequence in life. Makes it tough to choose a way forward and make a meaningful existence out of what seems utter chaos. Despair is, after all, living life without meaning.

Originally posted by jaywill
To everyone reading these words who do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus the Son of God -

You are a deceived man. Or you are a deceived woman.

You've been hoodwinked if you have been persuaded that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Jesus Christ is believable.

Who hoodwinked me?

What do you mean by 'believable'?

Originally posted by HumeA
Where does the faith come from though? A reading of the Bible? A divine light? Upbringing?

I believe faith comes through a personal testimony.

Originally posted by Scriabin
Why do people accept, without evidence, as fact that a human being called Jesus was conceived by the union of the deity of monotheism and a virgin human woman?

How is this different from the story of Hercules? What if the name of God was Zeus or Jupiter?

In other words, defining reality in terms of faith, any faith, simply baffles me.

I don't accept this; it causes enormous problems for me Christologically if I do. It's not necessary for me that Jesus is of virgin birth. To me the whole virgin birth issue completely obfuscates whatever may be deemed important of his ministry and mission.

I figure that an event that isn't covered in two of the four gospels isn't of great importance. What I find more interesting is how Matthew looks at the issues with Joseph and Luke looks at Mary's perspective.

This is an idea that I'm sure held great importance to earlier Christians but in the modern age I have reservations about giving it literal value. There's way to much baggage involved with taking it literally and it's completely unnecessary, so I don't treat it as a literal account - at all.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Who hoodwinked me?

What do you mean by 'believable'?

The enemy of your soul hoodwinked you. He is the controller of the Matrix. Remember , according to Christianity you are Keanu Reeves in the Matrix who doesn't know the truth. The truth is utterly shocking. It will rip through the very fabric of what you believe to be real. Although fortunately it's a bit more hopeful than in the film.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The enemy of your soul hoodwinked you. He is the controller of the Matrix. Remember , according to Christianity you are Keanu Reeves in the Matrix who doesn't know the truth. The truth is utterly shocking. It will rip through the very fabric of what you believe to be real. Although fortunately it's a bit more hopeful than in the film.

But I must take the pill first or reality remains solid for me?
So now the question is:
1. Which pill should I take - there are so many on offer.
2. Should I trust any of the pill vendors?
3. If I take a pill and reality dissolves, should I believe what I am seeing or take the more rational view point that there were mind altering substances (hallucinogenic drugs) in the pill?
4. Once I am out of the Matrix, how will I know that I am not in some higher level matrix? I have seen a movie with that theme (made before the Matrix) but I have forgotten what the title was.

And who is this controller of the matrix?

And what makes you think that you know more about reality than I do?

And what is it that you are hoping for anyway?

Oh, and don't use the word 'soul', unless you are willing to tell me what it is - otherwise you are just talking gibberish.

Originally posted by jaywill
HumeA,

[b]=============================

Are you sure? Zeus often took the form of an animal... you may just not have been receptive to his bull-form attempts to enlighten you...

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Do you live on the planet Earth?

Are you sure? I mean in the movie Forbidden Planet the planet Altair Four h ...[text shortened]... The wrestler Andrea the Giant had big muscles too.

Can't be too sure of things you know?[/b]

Exactly my point. So why be so sure that your faith is true? Why be so sure that you met Jesus? Describe him and I'll bet I can find an example of someone else it could have been.

With regard to faith:

I receive emails all the time from eastern European 'girls' telling me that they saw my photo and have fallen in love with me. Would I please send them money so that they can come over to England and do naughty things to me.

Those get deleted as junk mail, but I couldn't possibly know for certain they are scams. I may just be irresistible to poor Slavic girls. 😀

My point is that there is the same amount of evidence that they all love me as there is that the Bible is God's word, or the words of those that have communed with Him. And that evidence is the word of the people who stand to benefit from your faith in them.

If you believe that the Bible is God's word, I can understand that you must believe in God -- but why do you believe in the Bible?

The resounding answer seems to be (apart from met Jesus): "I just do." That's fair enough, I can't stop you from believing what you want to believe, but it does suggest strongly that upbringing is the resounding factor in faith.

I was brought up as a Christian (not in a strict fashion), and so for many years I didn't challenge the Christian concept of God. As I learnt more about the past and the present, I came to the decision that if there is one thing I have faith in, it is that a closed mind, more specifically in this case 'blind faith', causes everyone problems. True, blind faith solves problems too, but they are the problems that they were intended to solve by the people in charge -- such as controlling a maltreated under-class.

In short, I cannot understand placing one's faith in the Bible -- or the teachings of any organised religion -- as an authority, without any evidence in favour. I am open to the concept of a higher power, but I cannot understand why I am supposed to pick a religion.

Originally posted by Badwater
I don't accept this; it causes enormous problems for me Christologically if I do. It's not necessary for me that Jesus is of virgin birth. To me the whole virgin birth issue completely obfuscates whatever may be deemed important of his ministry and mission.

I figure that an event that isn't covered in two of the four gospels isn't of great importance. Wh ...[text shortened]... lly and it's completely unnecessary, so I don't treat it as a literal account - at all.

Another thing I don't understand...

If you believe in God as omnipotent, why doubt that he created the world in 7 days, and that a Virgin birth was possible?

Originally posted by jaywill
When you think about it, in this life you eventually have to put your trust in someone.

You trust your parents that they are your mother and father? Now you really don't KNOW that. You trust them on that. Right?

Did you have a DNA analysis done to verify personally for yourself that they ARE actually your parents? How do you know that the birth cert ...[text shortened]... et. I bet for the most part you trust the word of others.

We all have to trust someone/s.

I trust no-one blindly.
If I had reason to doubt my parents, I would question it.
If my life depended on knowing whether or not they were my biological parents (an organ transplant or something), then I would consider a DNA test if I could afford one.
I do not trust Einstein or Darwin, and don't agree with everything they say. I continual match what scientists (even renowned ones) say against my own understanding and where reasonably possible my own experiments, and against other sources of information. If it doesn't add up, I know there are problems.
I trust no-one blindly, unreservedly and against the evidence. I do not think it is either necessary nor wise to do so.

Originally posted by jaywill
I am not saying here is the Christ in the desert or there is the Christ in the inner rooms.

Your reference doesn't apply.

I am saying what the New Testament says:

[b]"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).

If I said that I did not know the life giving Spirit I would be a liar.[/b]

Originally posted by jaywill
I met Jesus.

I'm replying to this .....

When you come to tell me that you met Jesus , I can't believe you, because Jesus said that.

Originally posted by Scriabin
Honestly,, I have no idea what you are talking about.

What is "salvattion?" From what?

Receive Christ into my heart? Is it the case then that all Christians who do that never experience heart disease or a heart attack? When Christ comes into you heart, does he bring some tools or something to keep it working okay? If not, what's the use?

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Honestly,, I have no idea what you are talking about.

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There is a spiritual dimension to human life. A long time ago I did not regard anything as real except what I could sense with my five physical senses. Perhaps the psychological world also was real to me - my emotions, thoughts, and decisions of the will.

Eventually I realized that there were not only these dimensions to human life. There was also a spiritual dimension. That is a realm of fellowship with the Triune God, communion with the Holy Spirit, reconciliation with the Father, and the impartation of the divine nature of Christ into my being.

There is a spiritual dimension to human life. And without it we sense that something is missing. We sense that there must be something else to being a human. But we do not know exactly what that is.

Jesus Christ addresses that "missing" element of the spiritual. It is vitally important to our humanity.


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What is "salvattion?" From what?

==================================

To answer that would involve quite a bit more time and space then a forum like this allows.

But let me say a little. The word salvation has a number of different significances in the Bible.

1.) We need to be saved from having a dead human spirit. We need regeneration. We need a "birth" which is the resurrection of our comatose and deadened human spirit.

2.) We need a transformation of our personality to be conformed to the image of Christ. We have become fallen, damaged, sinful, revolting against God, moving ever in a direction away from God. Our souls need to be transformed from a fallen and damaged state into the image of Jesus. Jesus represents normality. Jesus Christ is really what God meant by "Man".

3.) We need a salvation from physical death. We need the resurrection of our bodies because death is an enemy of the Creator and a terrible foreign element evilly injected the eternal purpose of God for human beings.


4.) We need salvation from real guilt of real trangressions and real offenses and sins against a holy and righteous God. We need to be saved from the actual guilt of our record of sins before God. We need forgiveness for what we have done.

Our sins have made a separation between us and God. When the barrier of actual commited sins and their associated guilt is dealt with by Christ's redemption, then there is no problem to substantiating the reality of the Triune God.

It is your sins which make God not real to you. And they need to be forgiven through acceptance of Christ and His death on the cross on your behalf:

"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear heavy that it cannot hear. But your iniquites have become a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isa. 59:2)

God is there. Can can help. God can be real. God can be enjoyable. But the sins of the sinner have made a separation between him and God. And the iniquites of the sinner have erected a barrior between her and her Creator.

Provision for this problem lies solely in accepting the redemptive work of the Son of God upon His cross on behalf of the sinner. The barrior is removed when you confess that you are a helpless sinner full of guilt who cannot change on your own power and are in need of the forgiveness of God.

God is not interested in you groveling for mercy. He is interested that you admit that in Christ your sins were JUDGED by God in His Son on your behalf. Christ DIED and was judged by God for you.

He is not interested in your groveling in tears. He is interested in you acknowledging that you accept and receive what Christ has done on your behalf.

5.) We need a salvation from a life without purpose. Man was created for the purpose and will of God. Being estranged from God and from His purpose renders us aimless, vain, and in a state of futility and vanity.


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Receive Christ into my heart? Is it the case then that all Christians who do that never experience heart disease or a heart attack? When Christ comes into you heart, does he bring some tools or something to keep it working okay? If not, what's the use?
========================================

I do not mean the physical heart. I mean the heart which is composed of four immaterial parts of your total humanity.

1.) Your mind

2.) You emotion

3.) You will

4.) Your conscience

These four functions or components of your total personality make up the "heart" that I am refering to.

If you would take a concordance of the Bible and look up the hundreds of verses which mention man's heart in the psychological and spiritual sense you could catagorize all the passages to refer basically to these parts of your being - mind, emotion, will, and conscience.

This research has already been done for you and I by diligent students of the word of God in the past. We can benefit from their labors.

"Letting Jesus into your heart" is based on three crucial truths:

1.) That Jesus is indeed ALIVE.

2.) That Jesus is in a form that He, as living, can merge or blend with your being.

3.) That you are enterable. You are a vessel designed to contain the life of Christ, the life of God, the Person of the Holy Spirit.

All three of these realities can be clearly demonstrated from the Bible. Christ the resurrected and living Person is in a form in which He can enter into your being and mingle with you:

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The Triune God - the Father and Son as the Holy Spirit will come to a man or woman and MAKE AN ABODE WITH THEM. That is join them "organically" to the Lord Jesus the embodiment of the Triune God so that the Eternal Spirit and the human spirit become "one spirit" -

"He who is JOINED to the Lord is one spirit"

This joining to the Lord is the same as having the Spirit of the resurrected and living Jesus come into your being, blending, merging and incorporating Himself with your personality teaching you to live by abiding in Him as a realm and sphere of moment by moment living.

Originally posted by HumeA
Another thing I don't understand...

If you believe in God as omnipotent, why doubt that he created the world in 7 days, and that a Virgin birth was possible?

I've not stated that I believe God is "omnipotent" or that God created the world in 7 days, and I've already covered the notion of virgin birth, albeit briefly. You must have me confused with someone else.

Originally posted by Badwater
I've not stated that I believe God is "omnipotent" or that God created the world in 7 days, and I've already covered the notion of virgin birth, albeit briefly. You must have me confused with someone else.

My point was that if you believe in God, why shouldn't he have created the world in 7 days? Why couldn't he have made a virgin pregnant by clicking his fingers?

In short, how do you justify believing in one (God's existence) and not the other (his ability to do what we would consider impossible)?

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Originally posted by jaywill
I met Jesus.

I'm replying to this .....

When you come to tell me that you met Jesus , I can't believe you, because Jesus said that.[/b]

Why do you say that Jesus said that? Explain what you mean.