Why people believe rubbish

Originally posted by Varqa
I think some people are put off by God as depicted in some religious books.

You must admit that mankind today is far more intelligent than he was a millenia ago. Is it possible that these religious book tried to talk down to the level that man could understand back then?

What if God is an entity far beyond our comprehension? It is like trying to explai ...[text shortened]... ce at work in the universe, but the words of the Bible or the Quran are too simplistic for them.

I think you mean people today 'know' more rather than we are necessarily more intelligent.
You write about 'talking down to their level' as if the writers of the bible somehow had more knowledge than others. You may believe this but it's far from obvious.
What if god is beyond our comprehension? This is simply the argument from incredulity, or the god of the gaps.. If I give you an explanation for something, you'll find something else that I can't explain as evidence of god. If I can explain that you'll find yet another unexplained event or phenomena.
Simply claiming we cannot comprehend is a cop out.

Originally posted by amannion
I think you mean people today 'know' more rather than we are necessarily more intelligent.
You write about 'talking down to their level' as if the writers of the bible somehow had more knowledge than others. You may believe this but it's far from obvious.
What if god is beyond our comprehension? This is simply the argument from incredulity, or the god of ...[text shortened]... ther unexplained event or phenomena.
Simply claiming we cannot comprehend is a cop out.

Maybe you are right. Who knows.
I just know that I can not live in a world in which God did not exist. My life would be so meaningless and empty. If you can live in that world, well power to you. Why do you have to ruin it for the rest of us who need Him?

Originally posted by Varqa
Maybe you are right. Who knows.
I just know that I can not live in a world in which God did not exist. My life would be so meaningless and empty. If you can live in that world, well power to you. Why do you have to ruin it for the rest of us who need Him?

Not sure what you mean. I'm not trying to ruin the world for anyone. Some of my best friends and family are religious people. I don't have any problem at all with religious belief.
I'm saddened for you that you require the crutch of some supernatural belief or other to create meaning for your life, but hey, that's your choice, and your right. Go for it.

Originally posted by amannion
Not sure what you mean. I'm not trying to ruin the world for anyone. Some of my best friends and family are religious people. I don't have any problem at all with religious belief.
I'm saddened for you that you require the crutch of some supernatural belief or other to create meaning for your life, but hey, that's your choice, and your right. Go for it.

Thank you for your sadness.
Believers usully pray for each other when they are saddened. I wonder if you have some kind of ateist prayer or something you can send my way to rid me of my attachment to this crutch. Hey I am not messing with you. I am serious. Do you believe in any kind of vibes or Karma?

Originally posted by Varqa
Thank you for your sadness.
Believers usully pray for each other when they are saddened. I wonder if you have some kind of ateist prayer or something you can send my way to rid me of my attachment to this crutch. Hey I am not messing with you. I am serious. Do you believe in any kind of vibes or Karma?

No, I take your request seriously, but I have nothing to offer you other than my thoughts and best wishes. (Which is pretty much what prayer amounts to anyway.)
No, I don't believe in karma. If by vibes you mean the feelings we get that something is right or wrong, yes I get these. Same as you and everyone else.

Originally posted by amannion
No, I take your request seriously, but I have nothing to offer you other than my thoughts and best wishes. (Which is pretty much what prayer amounts to anyway.)
No, I don't believe in karma. If by vibes you mean the feelings we get that something is right or wrong, yes I get these. Same as you and everyone else.

This has been a fascinating dialogue. I wanted add another title to the list of good works on the topic: "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, recently published. Besides being exceedingly witty, Dawkins is thorough, and thoroughly logical, in his defence of atheism. I would imagine that any dogmatically religious individual would feel compelled to read it, if only as synopsis of arguments to be refuted.

On another note, the point about "ruining it" for those who need "Him" was disturbing on several levels. First, it reminds me of a few of our American cultural institutions where the adult world conspires to ensure young children believe in (not much different than "have faith in"😉 rediculous but comforting things. Finally one day someone comes along and "ruins it" for the gullible child. Second, if I believed in "Him" I would take issue with using a masculine pronoun in this case; it only makes sense to me that if a creator God existed, it would have to be without gender, and transcend every boundary that we are capable of imagining. Finally, I find it frustrating that prostelitism is supported in many faiths, and acceptable in our society, yet debate with atheists is often suggested to be too disturbing for the delicate faithful.

To bring it full circle, I'm one of those folks that irritates everyone: an agnostic, with strong tendencies towards atheism. Atheists have no respect for me because I lack the courage of my convictions; believers view me as a candidate to be swayed to their position, ready at any moment to convert. I admire the postive results that people believe they receive from their religious practice, but I fear the negative consequences deeply as well. One could argue that regardless of whether any of it is true, people need "Him" and therefore religious observance is good for society. However, this overlooks the terrific choas, suffering and pain caused ultimately by these same comforting beliefs.

Originally posted by htollerson
This has been a fascinating dialogue. I wanted add another title to the list of good works on the topic: "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, recently published. Besides being exceedingly witty, Dawkins is thorough, and thoroughly logical, in his defence of atheism. I would imagine that any dogmatically religious individual would feel compelled to re ...[text shortened]... fic choas, suffering and pain caused ultimately by these same comforting beliefs.

I believe there are a lot of positive in believing in God.

Unfortunately, locked into preoccupation with agendas that disperse and vitiate human energies, religious institutions have too often been the chief agents in discouraging exploration of reality and the exercise of those intellectual faculties that distinguish humankind.

It is only when the devout stop using their intellect that we have the negative effects of religion that you see.

Originally posted by htollerson
This has been a fascinating dialogue. I wanted add another title to the list of good works on the topic: "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, recently published. Besides being exceedingly witty, Dawkins is thorough, and thoroughly logical, in his defence of atheism. I would imagine that any dogmatically religious individual would feel compelled to re ...[text shortened]... fic choas, suffering and pain caused ultimately by these same comforting beliefs.

Interesting.
As a strong atheist I'm always interested by Dawkins work, but I find him to be a bit dogmatic. I haven't read his new work but I fear his arguments may be a bit simplistic.
If you're after books on this stuff Daniel Dennett has recently written a book about the evolution of religion - can't remember the name.
Also, despite my strong atheistic slant, I find many of the works by Bishop John Shelby Spong to be very thoughtful and extremely interesting.
For atheists and agnostics who have an interest in some alternative interpretations of biblical scripture - and some alternative points of view to the evangelical ones - it's worth taking a look at.

And on a personal note - agnostics DO NOT ittitate me. Continue to be as you are ...

Originally posted by Varqa
What if God is an entity far beyond our comprehension? It is like trying to explain the painter to the painting.

What about it? So what if he is far beyond our comprehension? He is perfect, isn't he? I'm sure if he tried hard enough, he would be able to figure out a way to make us understand. And if he fails to make us understand him, well, then that just goes to show us that he isn't that perfect after all?

Many years ago, I was teaching in a private school for some years. That happened to be a school for drop-outs who were considered dumb kids. It was very frustrating to teach such pupils. But I couldn't use that as an excuse not to teach. So what did I do then? Did I just kill them off because they're just too dumb to understand? Or do I somehow have to try to make them understand one way or another? Since god is perfect, he should have patience. Killing us humans is not a logical solution to his problems, whatever those problems are.

Originally posted by Varqa
I believe there are a lot of positive in believing in God.

Unfortunately, locked into preoccupation with agendas that disperse and vitiate human energies, religious institutions have too often been the chief agents in discouraging exploration of reality and the exercise of those intellectual faculties that distinguish humankind.

It is only when the devout stop using their intellect that we have the negative effects of religion that you see.

While I don't agree with you, I can understand your perspective. My mother is a devout christian and I know that her faith gives her much relief and strength. (Especially when she has to battle her recalcitrant, atheist son!)

Originally posted by ckoh1965
What about it? So what if he is far beyond our comprehension? He is perfect, isn't he? I'm sure if he tried hard enough, he would be able to figure out a way to make us understand. And if he fails to make us understand him, well, then that just goes to show us that he isn't that perfect after all?

Many years ago, I was teaching in a private school for s ...[text shortened]... . Killing us humans is not a logical solution to his problems, whatever those problems are.

Don't forget that when we believe something, it is very difficult to change our minds.

Originally posted by amannion
Don't forget that when we believe something, it is very difficult to change our minds.

You don't forget either.

Originally posted by Varqa
You don't forget either.

No, you're right, I mean everyone.

Originally posted by orfeo
It's not the existence of the universe that's relevant. If anything, it would be the degree of order in the universe.

People would quite happily accept that the universe merely popped into existence if was a chaotic shambles.

It did. However, ordered things which are stable configurations (like lumps of rock) tend to hang around whilst less stable things get degraded. As there is only a certain amount of matter in the universe, eventually things get pretty ordered (like planets are more ordered than asteroids).

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It did. However, ordered things which are stable configurations (like lumps of rock) tend to hang around whilst less stable things get degraded. As there is only a certain amount of matter in the universe, eventually things get pretty ordered (like planets are more ordered than asteroids).

Oh hush! YOu don't want the 2nd Thermo-law freaks in here do you?