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18 Jun 13
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Read the Lord of the Rings trilogy by Tolkien. He has maps of Middle Earth in the books and everything. It has so much detail it will make your eyes bleed.
lol. I was wondering when someone was going to suggest that ?
A little closer. Lot's of map detail as I recall.
Originally posted by SwissGambitBut were are these places today. They are only in the imagination. The Holy Bible refers to real places and locations that can be visited today.
Read the Lord of the Rings trilogy by Tolkien. He has maps of Middle Earth in the books and everything. It has so much detail it will make your eyes bleed.
The Instructor
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Originally posted by SwissGambitOkay. Lord of the Rings has lots of geographic detail as a fairy tale.
Read the Lord of the Rings trilogy by Tolkien. He has maps of Middle Earth in the books and everything. It has so much detail it will make your eyes bleed.
I have another challenge. In the New Testament the following names of people have been confirmed OUTSIDE of the New Testament to have existed. (other than Jesus of Nazareth)
Can you think of a fairy tale which would have as much outside attestation of the historicity this many characters ?
Anyone have a fairy tale with an equivalent outside confirmation of the historicity of this many characters ?
Agrippa I-----Acts 12:1-24-----confirmed by Philo, Josephus
Agrippa II-----Acts 25:13-26,32-----confirmed by coins, Josephus
Ananias-----Acts 23:2;24:1-----confirmed by Josephus
Annas-----Luke 3:2; John 18:13,24-----conformed by Josephus
Arestas -----2 Cor. 11:32-----confirmed by Josephus
Bernice (wife of Agrippa II)-----Acts 23:13-----confirmed by Josephus
Caesar Augustus-----Acts 23:13-----confirmed by Josephus
Caiphas-----several citations-----confirmed by ossuary, Josephus
Claudius-----Acts 11:28;18:2-----confirmed by Josephus
Drusilla (wife of Felix) ----- Acts 24:24-----confirmed by Josephus
Egyptian false prophet-----Acts 21:38-----confirmed by Josephus
Erastus----- Acts 19:22 ----- confirmed by inscription
Felix ----- Acts 23:24-25:14----confirmed by Tacitus, Josephus
Gallio----- Acts 18:12-17 ----- confirmed by inscription
Gameliel ----- Acts 5:34;22:3 ----- confirmed by Josephus
Herod Antipas ----- Matt. 14:1-12; Mark 6:14-29 ---confirmed by Josephus
Herod Archelaus -----Matt. 2:22 ----- confirmed by Josephus
Herod the Great ---Matt. 2:1-19; Luke 1:5--confirmed by Tacitus, Josephus
Herod Philip I-----Matt. 14:3;Mark 6:17-----confirmed by Josephus
Herod Philip II-----Luke 3:1-----confirmed by Josephus
Herodias-----Matt. 14:3;Mark 6:17-----confirmed by Josephus
Herodias's daughter Solome---Matt.14:1-12-----confirmed by Josephus
James---- serveral citations-----confirmed by Josephus
John the Baptist-----several citations-----confirmed by Josephus
Judas the Galilean-----Acts 5:27----confirmed by Josephus
Lysanias ----- Luke 3:1----confirmed by inscription, Josephus
Pilate----several citations---confirmed by inscriptions,coins,Josephus, Philo,Tacitus
Quirinius----Luke 3:1----confirmed by Josephus
Porcius Festas ----- Acts 24:27-26:32 ---- confirmed by Josephus
Sergius Paulus----- Acts13:6-12 ----- confirmed by inscription
Tiberius Ceasar---Luke 3:1 ----confirmed by Tacitus, Suetonius,Paterculus, Dio Cassius, Josephus
18 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipThis post sponsored by Goalpost Movers, Inc. - where our motto is there's no bet that you'll hit that net.
Okay. [b]Lord of the Rings has lots of geographic detail as a fairy tale.
I have another challenge. In the New Testament the following names of people have been confirmed OUTSIDE of the New Testament to have existed. (other than Jesus of Nazareth)
Can you think of a fairy tale which would have as much outside attestation of the historicity th ...[text shortened]... fairy tale with an equivalent outside confirmation of the historicity of this many characters ?[/b]
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18 Jun 13
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Originally posted by SwissGambitThat is not really fair of you.
This post sponsored by Goalpost Movers, Inc. - where our motto is there's no bet that you'll hit that net.
I did not move the goalpost.
I conceded that some case could be made in the case of Tolkien's fairy tale in terms of geographic detail. I said "Okay" on that front - an arguable comparison.
Then I made another challenge. There's nothing unfair about that.
I don't consider that shifting the goalpost.
18 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipWould you care to suggest a scenario that would be considered 'shifting the goalposts'. This one sounds like a perfect example to me.
That is not really fair of you.
I did not move the goalpost.
I conceded that some case could be made in the case of Tolkien's fairy tale in terms of geographic detail. I said "Okay" on that front - an arguable comparison.
Then I made another challenge. There's nothing unfair about that.
I don't consider that shifting the goalpost.
You are saying 'the Bible is special because of X', then when someone points out that other non-special books have that same property, you say 'well ok then, the Bible is special because of Y'.
Whether it matters is another point entirely. Pick any major work of fiction and you will be able to find some unique aspect to it if you look hard enough.
--- Penguin.
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Would you care to suggest a scenario that would be considered 'shifting the goalposts'. This one sounds like a perfect example to me.It would not include me saying "Okay. You have at least an arguable case."
Now if I had said that Tolkien ( whom I have not read) "only mentioned X number of places but my quote from Joshua mentioned many more. so you fail." That I would consider playing the same game and moving the goalpost further out.
The questioned was answered as far as I am concerned. I asked for someone to mention a comparative situation and someone submitted an example.
Well, I guess I am saying the Bible is special because of more than one reason. I did not say any one of those reasons necessarily prove that it is what it says it is. But I invited comparisons of at least three grounds with fairy tales -
You are saying 'the Bible is special because of X', then when someone points out that other non-special books have that same property, you say 'well ok then, the Bible is special because of Y'.
1.) geographic detail
2.) biographic detail
3.) outside historical confirmation of some of its characters
Whether it matters is another point entirely. Pick any major work of fiction and you will be able to find some unique aspect to it if you look hard enough.
Should that bother me ?
That there is no other book quite like Moby Dick (though maybe Old Man in the Sea has some similar characteristics), is that proof that the Bible is just like any other book ?
I think this argument just says " I can always come up with a plausible rational that your Bible is not unique."
May reply to that is "I know you can."
18 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipCould you please explain the relevance of this post?
I think it is asinine to assume that whoever created the universe from nothing has limited power. It is asinine to assume that such a God would not be able to manifest transcendent power should it meet His need to do so.
Originally posted by sonshipIf only you were not cutting off the previous debate just as it threatened to become difficult and/or interesting. Then I could see it. I am inclined to grant leeway for people to discuss several aspect of an issue, but not if they won't see it through.
That is not really fair of you.
I did not move the goalpost.
I conceded that some case could be made in the case of Tolkien's fairy tale in terms of geographic detail. I said "Okay" on that front - an arguable comparison.
Then I made another challenge. There's nothing unfair about that.
I don't consider that shifting the goalpost.
Originally posted by sonshipsimples!...take any collection of people known to exist and write about how they were all once whisked away to the land of "Garchag" on a giant magic carpet made of Leprechaun skin.
Okay. [b]Lord of the Rings has lots of geographic detail as a fairy tale.
I have another challenge. In the New Testament the following names of people have been confirmed OUTSIDE of the New Testament to have existed. (other than Jesus of Nazareth)
Can you think of a fairy tale which would have as much outside attestation of the historicity th fairy tale with an equivalent outside confirmation of the historicity of this many characters ?[/b]
Then describe in detail how they returned, and how they were commanded by King Almos (of Garchag) to never speak a word about their adventures - lest he turn their sons and daughters into gargoyles.
After writing such a story...prove it *didn't* happen!
19 Jun 13
Originally posted by AgergThat is the point. One way to determine a story is a fairy tale is that the geographicl locations can not be found.
simples!...take any collection of people known to exist and write about how they were all once whisked away to the land of "Garchag" on a giant magic carpet made of Leprechaun skin.
Then describe in detail how they returned, and how they were commanded by King Almos (of Garchag) to never speak a word about their adventures - lest he turn their sons and daughters into gargoyles.
After writing such a story...prove it *didn't* happen!
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