03 Feb 14
1 edit
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is the Bible remember, it does not need to make any sense. In fact the more contradictory and meaningless it is, the better: then you can impose whatever meaning and message you like onto it.
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
Even if you are not sure if someone is really a supernatural deity or not, you are still quite capable of debasing yourself before them. A bit like Pascal's Wager I suppose, except in this case they are actually seeing something (a person they thought was dead presumably) that is there.
Penguin
03 Feb 14
4 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhere doubt is absent so is faith. 😉
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
My favorite passage comes from Daniel where the 3 Hebews were about to be thrown into the fiery furnace. One perks up and says that God will deliver them.....then pauses......but if not, he says, they will not disobey God's commands anyway by worship their idols.
Now there is some hard core zealots!!
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhy don't you doubt your Watchtower leaders when they have been wrong so many times on the date of the coming of the Lord Jesus? They finallly had to make up the story that He has come back in spirit and deny His bodily resurrection. Many JWs have been smart enough to recognize that the JW organization is not the faithful and discreet slave that it claims to be.
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
http://carm.org/faithful-and-discreet-slave
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
04 Feb 14
7 edits
This is the Bible remember, it does not need to make any sense.
Why do you say the Bible does not have to make sense ?
Are you smoking something ?
In fact the more contradictory and meaningless it is, the better: then you can impose whatever meaning and message you like onto it.
Concerning the passage Robbie asks about, there are 150 Psalms. In many of those Psalms there are expressions of faith along side of fighting against doubt. I don't see what his problem is.
Abraham, the father of faith, had doubts and he worshipped God, building altars and calling on His name.
Even if you are not sure if someone is really a supernatural deity or not, you are still quite capable of debasing yourself before them. A bit like Pascal's Wager I suppose, except in this case they are actually seeing something (a person they thought was dead presumably) that is there.
God is not interested in you debasing yourself. If you didn't have such a sickeningly overblown ego you wouldn't equate worship of God with self abasement.
He told Job to "Gird up now your loins like a mighty man; For I will ask you and you shall inform me". (Job 40:7)
Your groveling on your belly doesn't please God.
If you see God for Who He is, being awe inspired will come quite spontaneously.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMaybe some were like the one often called doubting Thomas.
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
(John 20:24-29 NKJV)
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsI guess I should at least be glad that the latecomers to this party came at all.
Why don't you doubt your Watchtower leaders when they have been wrong so many times on the date of the coming of the Lord Jesus? They finallly had to make up the story that He has come back in spirit and deny His bodily resurrection. Many JWs have been smart enough to recognize that the JW organization is not the faithful and discreet slave that it claims to be.
http://carm.org/faithful-and-discreet-slave
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieApparently, a lot of things make no sense to you, robbie, even things most Christians take for granted.
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
As a matter of fact, sometimes I'm not even sure that you even understand English.
A chimpanzee is closer to God than you are.
04 Feb 14
2 edits
Originally posted by SuzianneI think its fairly safe to say you have lost the plot and are shrieking away like some crazed women who has lost all her hair in the baddest bad hairdo day evah, your texts have degenerated to meaningless, please think before texting if not for my sake for your own, you are making yourself look more foolish than you actually are.
Apparently, a lot of things make no sense to you, robbie, even things most Christians take for granted.
As a matter of fact, sometimes I'm not even sure that you even understand English.
A chimpanzee is closer to God than you are.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Penguinactually the only reason the text is meaningless in this instance is that its inaccurately translated, the term worship makes no sense here and a much better rendering is to
This is the Bible remember, it does not need to make any sense. In fact the more contradictory and meaningless it is, the better: then you can impose whatever meaning and message you like onto it.
Even if you are not sure if someone is really a supernatural deity or not, you are still quite capable of debasing yourself before them. A bit like Pascal's Wag ...[text shortened]... actually seeing something (a person they thought was dead presumably) that is there.
Penguin
When they saw him, they did obeisance*, but some doubted.
Greek term proskuneó* from pros and a probable derivative of kuon (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore)
The term can also be rendered as worship but in this instance it makes absolutely no sense, it is not possible to worship someone and doubt at the same time and the only basis for rendering the term worship is that its in connection with Jesus.
For nominal Christians Jesus exerts magical properties on nouns and verbs, he can change an indefinite predicate noun indicating a quality into a definite one indicating a personage and he can as you see here change an act of obeisance or prostration into an act of worship merely by his presence, although it makes absolutely no sense. But hey thats nominal Christianity for you.
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou think "they did obeisance" makes sense? Maybe that makes sense to you Irish and British people, but you say that to a redneck American and he would probably think they were eating something to make themselves fat, but some doubted it would work.
actually the only reason the text is meaningless in this instance is that its inaccurately translated, the term worship makes no sense here and a much better rendering is to
When they saw him, they did obeisance*, but some doubted.
Greek term proskuneó* from pros and a probable derivative of kuon (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master ...[text shortened]... is presence, although it makes absolutely no sense. But hey thats nominal Christianity for you.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindslogically yes for as i have demonstrated to worship and doubt makes no sense and since when were redkneck Americans the defining standard of Biblical interpretation?
You think "they did obeisance" makes sense? Maybe that makes sense to you Irish and British people, but you say that to a redneck American and he would probably think they were eating something to make themselves fat, but some doubted it would work.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is the first time I have ever heard anybody find something strange or even interesting in this verse.
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Matthew 28:16-17
NIV version
can anyone tell us how it is possible to worship someone and doubt them at the same time for it appears to me to make no sense.
In colloquial language it makes perfect sense.
Consider a group of eleven persons entering a MacDonalds, and a report writer following them states:
"When they entered the restaurant they ordered meals, but some only Coke".
Question: How is it possible for someone to say "they" ordered meals, and at the same time only Coke? Huge contradiction! 😕
Back to the disciples. The group (they) saw Jesus and (collectively) worshiped him. However, two or three of them had secret doubts in their minds as to whether this was REALLY him.
And your problem is???