Worship

Originally posted by rwingett
I'm saying that IF there is a god, he would make us FEEL like an equal. He would make us feel like we had some great contribution to make in his cosmic plan. That he couldn't do it without our help. Not like how it is now where we're just worthless peons who can do nothing right.

You might even say that he would come down and serve mankind even though he was greater, right before he died for us all to boot!!

Originally posted by whodey
Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the llfe. I believe this so to say that I don't know the truth would be a lie.

Jesus never said half of the things that are attributed to him in the bible. you don't know the truth. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH (to paraphrase Jack Nicholson).

Originally posted by joe beyser
Of course there is a superior/inferior relationship there but it seems contrived to me that love and respect would run one way. It is basically a choice. Either a person can choose God or not. Once the relaionship is established which is one of love and respect then a person is a worshiping son of a gun.

But what do you get?
You give your love and respect. What do you get back?
You have a feeling of getting something I assume since you believe. But what do you actually get back? What's the physical response from this thing you worship?

I liked your line in the other post about love not being physical - but this is not strictly true, at least not of love between two people. There are physical indicators of love between two people.

But between you and a god. What do you get from that love?

Originally posted by amannion
But what do you get?
You give your love and respect. What do you get back?
You have a feeling of getting something I assume since you believe. But what do you actually get back? What's the physical response from this thing you worship?

I liked your line in the other post about love not being physical - but this is not strictly true, at least not of lov ...[text shortened]... ators of love between two people.

But between you and a god. What do you get from that love?

To be honest I don't know other than life itself. I have not had the experiences a lot of folks do with religion.

Originally posted by joe beyser
To be honest I don't know other than life itself. I have not had the experiences a lot of folks do with religion.

So what convinces you that there is another entity in the relationship and that it's not all one sided?

Originally posted by rwingett
Jesus never said half of the things that are attributed to him in the bible. you don't know the truth. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH (to paraphrase Jack Nicholson).

Then you handle the truth for us.

Enumerate three things in the half that the Bible attributes to Him that is true. Then enumerate three things in the half of the Bible which attributes untrue things to Him.

And then tell us how you know which is true and which are not. I don't expect you to elaborate on your preferences or what you'd liked to believe. I don't expect you to offer your biases as proof.

I expect you to tell us how you know the true half from the false half.

Originally posted by rwingett
Jesus never said half of the things that are attributed to him in the bible. you don't know the truth. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH (to paraphrase Jack Nicholson).

That is your belief, I have told you my belief.

What I find interesting about Christ is that he NEVER wrote of himself. He let others write about him. For me, it gives an air of authenticity of witnesses to corraborate his story. Of course, you can argue that things were added in later to the original manuscripts, but I often do that when writing on these boards. For me, it does not make it any less authentic.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, what did the 12 disciples see and expereince with the man Jesus that caoused them to lay down their lives for the message of the good news?

Originally posted by jaywill
Then you handle the truth for us.

Enumerate three things in the half that the Bible attributes to Him that is true. Then enumerate three things in the half of the Bible which attributes untrue things to Him.

And then tell us how you know which is true and which are not. I don't expect you to elaborate on your preferences or what you'd like to believe.

I expect you to tell us how you[b] know the true half from the false half.[/b]

i don't "know." No one "knows." But we can make a good guess. Those fine folks at the Jesus Seminar have done quite a bit of work into the historic Jesus. Their guess as to what some authentic sayings are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Authentic_sayings.2C_as_determined_by_the_seminar

Some sayings that are probably authentic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Some_probably_authentic_sayings.2C_as_determined_by_the_seminar

Their criteria for authenticity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Criteria_for_authenticity

That, I suppose, will answer all your questions.

Originally posted by rwingett
i don't "know." No one "knows." But we can make a good guess. Those fine folks at the Jesus Seminar have done quite a bit of work into the historic Jesus. Their guess as to what some authentic sayings are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Authentic_sayings.2C_as_determined_by_the_seminar

Some sayings that are probably authentic:

http://en ...[text shortened]... Jesus_Seminar#Criteria_for_authenticity

That, I suppose, will answer all your questions.

After reading the message of Jesus, where do you think he deviates from the truth other than making supernatural claims?

This issue reminds me of a thread I started about Socrates. I compared the teachings of Socrates and showed the similarities to that of Jesus. Then much to my amazement, people began questioning the authentic nature of the quotes coming from Socrates. It is almost as if when the truth is pronounced, people are so stunned that they deny that any one man could actually come up with such truths. No doubt, you have manuscripts refuting that Socrates even existed or that he said the things he was credited with saying. The bottom line is though that SOMEONE had to say these things and for me they resonate as truth.

Originally posted by whodey
That is your belief, I have told you my belief.

What I find interesting about Christ is that he NEVER wrote of himself. He let others write about him. For me, it gives an air of authenticity of witnesses to corraborate his story. Of course, you can argue that things were added in later to the original manuscripts, but I often do that when writing on th ...[text shortened]... with the man Jesus that caoused them to lay down their lives for the message of the good news?

You are correct, Jesus never wrote of himself. At least not that we know. But the question is why? Surely he could have. So why didn't he? It's possible that he didn't want his sayings to become a dogmatic religion. He wanted them to remain an elastic guide to the problems they all faced. By committing them to print, people became obsessed with the written word and their "correct" interpretation. By not writing them down, they remain pragmatic advice and not inflexible dogma.

Originally posted by rwingett
i don't "know." No one "knows." But we can make a good guess. Those fine folks at the Jesus Seminar have done quite a bit of work into the historic Jesus. Their guess as to what some authentic sayings are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Authentic_sayings.2C_as_determined_by_the_seminar

Some sayings that are probably authentic:

http://en ...[text shortened]... Jesus_Seminar#Criteria_for_authenticity

That, I suppose, will answer all your questions.

And I in turn recommend a book to you.

Darell L. Bock & Daniel B. Wallace - Dethroning Jesus - Exposing Popular Culture's Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ - published by Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Originally posted by whodey
After reading the message of Jesus, where do you think he deviates from the truth other than making supernatural claims?

This issue reminds me of a thread I started about Socrates. I compared the teachings of Socrates and showed the similarities to that of Jesus. Then much to my amazement, people began questioning the authentic nature of the quotes comin ...[text shortened]... he bottom line is though that SOMEONE had to say these things and for me they resonate as truth.

I don't think Jesus deviates. i think the people who allegedly recorded his words deviate. I think everything about the "next life" is hogwash. Jesus meant the kingdom to be in this world, in the very near future. When that future didn't materialize, people altered his words to mean "in the next life."

Originally posted by rwingett
You are correct, Jesus never wrote of himself. At least not that we know. But the question is why? Surely he could have. So why didn't he? It's possible that he didn't want his sayings to become a dogmatic religion. He wanted them to remain an elastic guide to the problems they all faced. By committing them to print, people became obsessed with the written pretation. By not writing them down, they remain pragmatic advice and not inflexible dogma.

I will not deny that the worship of the written word is problematic with man made teachings that the Bible is inerrant. The Bible never makes such claims, rather, the Bible only says it is the inspired word of God. Although I don't see the Bible as inerrant, I do see it as truth with minor "errors" within it. It was written to reveal who God is and what he has done for us and what he expects of us. Having said that, the Bible has also been proved to be remarkably accurate with such things as Biblical archaeology. Again, I see it as close to being inerrant without God not writing it down himself. That is why I look to the teachings of Christ. It was the direct word from God himself even though it was passed down to us second hand. I think that if the words of Jesus were to be erronously written down, that Christ would have done it himself....that is if he was the real deal. Of course, you think him just to be a man and not a man of God so I guess you are off the hook!!.

Edit: You also see this worship of the written word in Islam regarding the Koran. Of course, they take it to the extreme. In fact, you can't so much as sneeze next to the Koran or else!!

Originally posted by jaywill
And I in turn recommend a book to you.

Darell L. Bock & Daniel B. Wallace - [b]Dethroning Jesus - Exposing Popular Culture's Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ - published by Thomas Nelson Publishers.[/b]

Oh, thank you, Jaywill. Maybe I'll put it on my Amazon wish list. 😴

Originally posted by whodey
I will not deny that the worship of the written word is problematic with man made teachings that the Bible is inerrant. The Bible never makes such claims, rather, the Bible only says it is the inspired word of God. Although I don't see the Bible as inerrant, I do see it as truth with minor "errors" within it. It was written to reveal who God is and what he ...[text shortened]... ey take it to the extreme. In fact, you can't so much as sneeze next to the Koran or else!!

Oh, yes, those bloody Muslims! It's nice having someone who makes Christians look like moderates, isn't it? 😴

Needless to say, I do not agree with your assessment of the bible.