18 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderBabe Ruth drank!? What The!
Apparently you have a severe reading comprehension problem.
Have someone who isn't an idiot explain my last post to you. Here's the short version: The fact that someone used a banned drug doesn't mean they "cheated".
Here's the key part:
To be "cheating" the drugs must be recognized by the sport as performance enhancin ...[text shortened]... "cheater" because he used a drug that was illegal during the 20's i.e. alcohol.
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18 Dec 07
Steriods and HGH were always performance enhancing drugs. They did not become performance enhancing due to a proclamation by baseball or anyone else. They are taken because they allow the athlete to perform better. I might distinguish that from pot and alcohol which are not performance enhancing drugs. Using those substances probably make you play worse. Cocaine perhaps is both performance enhancing and recrecational. But, the players named in the Mitchell report (assuming it is trueand remeber they had the opportunity to speak to Mitchell but chose not to) are all guilty of unfairly enhancing their performance.
18 Dec 07
Originally posted by jofazWhy do extreme athletes like bowlers and golfers call beer "aiming fluid" if it doesn't give you an advantage?
Steriods and HGH were always performance enhancing drugs. They did not become performance enhancing due to a proclamation by baseball or anyone else. They are taken because they allow the athlete to perform better. I might distinguish that from pot and alcohol which are not performance enhancing drugs. Using those substances probably make you play worse. ...[text shortened]... y to speak to Mitchell but chose not to) are all guilty of unfairly enhancing their performance.
Hmmmm?
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18 Dec 07
Originally posted by PhlabibitI'm not sure there is medical evidence that you putt better after a few drinks. Some people believe that they drive better after a few drunks, when they tested it, they found out it wasn't true. If you want to ban alcohol because it gives you an unfair advanatge, I am all for it, but using quotes from bowlers, golfers and extreme athletes does not seem to be too logical.
Why do extreme athletes like bowlers and golfers call beer "aiming fluid" if it doesn't give you an advantage?
Hmmmm?
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19 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by jofazSo you say. Baseball is the one who makes the determination whether any drug is unfairly performance enhancing in that sport, not you. And again from the 1991 memo:
Steriods and HGH were always performance enhancing drugs. They did not become performance enhancing due to a proclamation by baseball or anyone else. They are taken because they allow the athlete to perform better. I might distinguish that from pot and alcohol which are not performance enhancing drugs. Using those substances probably make you play worse. ...[text shortened]... y to speak to Mitchell but chose not to) are all guilty of unfairly enhancing their performance.
illegal drug use can cause injuries on the field, diminished job performance ......
Baseball in the 90's did not feel that steroid use unfairly enhanced performance in baseball or they would have said so and set up a testing program (as other sports did; in fact international track and field had one in effect since 1972). And no sport after banning steroids or other substances for being performance enhancing ever set up a commission to name players who might have used said drug(s) 5-20 years before. The Mitchell Commission was a grandstanding witch hunt from Day 1 and any player who would have "voluntarily" spoke to them to attempt to refute allegations of the sort that are outlined in the Report (from felons seeking a better plea deal or multiple hearsay) would have been a damn fool.
EDIT: The NFL began testing its players for steroids in 1987 and by 1990 had a random testing program with mandatory penalties. So it's not like MLB didn't know what the effects of steroids were or what a program to attempt to erradicate them would look like. It is the epitome of hypocrisy for MLB to call people "cheaters" in the 1990's for doing something that MLB consistently failed to identify as cheating. It's as if RHP banned engine use in 1990, but Gameknot didn't until 2002 but then went back and id'ed engine users on GK in the 1990's and labelled them as "cheats".
19 Dec 07
A sport can decide to ban certain legal substances or can to decide to test for certain banned substances. It cannot legalize what is illegal (that is for the legislature) and it cannot decide whether something enhances or does not enhance performance (that empircal issue is decided by science). The 1991 recognizes the legislaatures authority when it states "the sale or use of illegal drugs or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited"
19 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by jofazYou seem to have missed the word "unfairly". A sport can't legalize a substance, but it can decide that whether a certain substance is illegal or not is of no import to the sport.
A sport can decide to ban certain legal substances or can to decide to test for certain banned substances. It cannot legalize what is illegal (that is for the legislature) and it cannot decide whether something enhances or does not enhance performance (that empircal issue is decided by science). The 1991 recognizes the legislaatures authority when it states al drugs or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited"
Please provide me a list of ALL major league baseball players disciplined between 1991 and 2002 for using steroids.
19 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderFairness is always debatable. But to me it is pretty clear that steriods and HGH give an unfair advantage to use steriods and baseball should displine NOW. No baseball fan should be OK with the numbers of individuals like Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Palmiero and I would not just push it under the rug and make belive it did not happen.
You seem to have missed the word "unfairly". A sport can't legalize a substance, but it can decide that whether a certain substance is illegal or not is of no import to the sport.
Please provide me a list of ALL major league baseball players disciplined between 1991 and 2002 for using steroids.
Furthermore the relevant part of the memo does not discuss fairness. "The possession, sale or use of any any illegal drug or contolled susbtance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled susbstance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game" It is time for expulsion.
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by jofazI repeat: what is sooooooooooooooo clear to YOU, was apparently unclear to MLB during the 90's (and remains unclear to me today - the idea that a steroid injection or two has the same effect that spinach has on Popeye in the cartoon is ridiculous, but a few posters here apparently believe that is true).
Fairness is always debatable. But to me it is pretty clear that steriods and HGH give an unfair advantage to use steriods and baseball should displine NOW. No baseball fan should be OK with the numbers of individuals like Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Palmiero and I would not just push it under the rug and make belive it did not happen.
Furthermo ...[text shortened]... ine by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game" It is time for expulsion.
Again: Please list ALL the players disciplined from 1991 to 2002 for using steroids.
The Commissioner doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of expelling anyone for steroid "violations" in the 90's. There's this little thing called a collective bargaining agreement.
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderHoly crap....Never thought I would say this, but I agree with no1marauder on this topic.
I repeat: what is sooooooooooooooo clear to YOU, was apparently unclear to MLB during the 90's (and remains unclear to me today - the idea that a steroid injection or two has the same effect that spinach has on Popeye in the cartoon is ridiculous, but a few posters here apparently believe that is true).
Again: Please list ALL the players disc ...[text shortened]... lations" in the 90's. There's this little thing called a collective bargaining agreement.
*shakes head to get rid of the cobwebs*
19 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by PhlabibitThey help increase body mass. So does weight lifting. Is weight lifting "unfair"?
You see no advantage to taking steroids? So why do they bother?
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They may help recovery time from certain injuries. So do surgery and many other medical treatments. Is being treated for injuries "unfair"?
The claim made in the Mitchell Report that you repeated here i.e. that by taking a few steroid injections in 1998, Roger Clemens was able to suddenly turn from a washed up pitcher to being virtually unhittable in the space of a few weeks is utterly ludicrous.
19 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderIt is if you're using steroids or HGH to heal or gain weight.
They help increase body mass. So does weight lifting. Is weight lifting "unfair"?
They may help recovery time from certain injuries. So do surgery and many other medical treatments. Is being treated for injuries "unfair"?
The claim made in the Mitchell Report that you repeated here i.e. that by taking a few steroid injections in 1998 ...[text shortened]... d up pitcher to being virtually unhittable in the space of a few weeks is utterly ludicrous.
Taking steroids or HGH allows you to develop more muscle and some players even claim to get a 'muscle pop' in speed... quicker muscle reaction. That's a big advantage whether your swinging at a ball, or hurling from the mound.
Being able to play into your mid 40's is also a great advantage.
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19 Dec 07
What is crazy is to think Barry Bonds just became a power hitter naturally. Yeah, he just worked out so hard his head grew and he went from a speedy golden glove outfielder into a Babe Ruth player. It is also crazy to think Clemens whose career was tailing off suddenly became the 1986 Clemens again. Or Rafael Palmero who was not nearly the prospect Will Clark was or nearly the college player he was would one day go from a singles hitter to a 500 homerun hitter. Bernie Williams got old his production dropped he retired. Balco man Sheffield just keeps hitting. Steriods and HGH are not like taking extra batting practice. They are cheating -- the make a huge difference -- sports should do something.
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by PhlabibitWeight lifting "allows" you to develop more muscle, too. So is it unfair for some guys to lift weights if everybody doesn't?
It is if you're using steroids or HGH to heal or gain weight.
Taking steroids or HGH allows you to develop more muscle and some players even claim to get a 'muscle pop' in speed... quicker muscle reaction. That's a big advantage whether your swinging at a ball, or hurling from the mound.
Being able to play into your mid 40's is also a great advantage.
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Being able to play into your 40's is a "great" advantage in what sense? Maybe MLB should just pass a rule barring people from playing after they reach 40 and solve that "problem".