22 Jul 11
Originally posted by Zapp BranniganI'd say July or August of 1942. No1 and I had this out last year, but I think that Case Blue, if played correctly and with a little luck thrown in, could have been a successful campaign. No1 thinks that Blue was foredoomed. You could argue that question for weeks, as we did. 😉
Well let's see where this goes.
High water mark of the Third Reich would be about mid September 1941 you think? Looked all over for Russia, Germany thought they were just about to mop things up in another month or two.
Until the weather changed.
22 Jul 11
2 edits
Originally posted by sh76Yes, a year later they were still holding out hope of victory in the East, but nothing like the first 3 months of Barbarossa where it looked like they could do no wrong and Stalin was finished.
I'd say July or August of 1942. No1 and I had this out last year, but I think that Case Blue, if played correctly and with a little luck thrown in, could have been a successful campaign. No1 thinks that Blue was foredoomed. You could argue that question for weeks, as we did. 😉
By mid '42 the fear was setting in, America had entered the war,Germany was getting bombed, the Allies were landing in Africa, and their Spider Senses were tingling. Plus the Russian front had bled them dry after a year of fighting and the days of their easy conquests were long gone.
22 Jul 11
Originally posted by Zapp BranniganPerhaps, but they controlled much more territory in July of 1942 than in September of 1941.
Yes, a year later they were still holding out hope of victory in the East, but nothing like the first 3 months of Barbarossa where it looked like they could do no wrong and Stalin was finished.
By mid '42 the fear was setting in, America had entered the war,Germany was getting bombed, the Allies were landing in Africa, and their Spider Senses were tingling.
22 Jul 11
Originally posted by Zapp BranniganHmmm...
I did not know that.
Well OK then, mid 42 it is.
Still, when would you be happier and more optimistic as a German, Sept '41 or '42?
I suppose if I were a civilian, Sep. of '42. But if I were a member of the general staff who knew how explosive and dangerous Stalingrad was becoming, I'd say Sep. of '41.
Now, early July of '42 was a different matter. The Russians were putting up very poor resistance against the marches to Stalingrad down the Don under Bock and into the Caucuses under List.
I think that if I were a German general staff member, apart from the first days of Barbarossa when it looked like the Red Army looked like it might not be capable of putting up much resistance, I think my confident would have peaked around the first 2 weeks of July, 1942.
22 Jul 11
Originally posted by sh76OK i'll take your word for it you seem to know your stuff.
Hmmm...
I suppose if I were a civilian, Sep. of '42. But if I were a member of the general staff who knew how explosive and dangerous Stalingrad was becoming, I'd say Sep. of '41.
Now, early July of '42 was a different matter. The Russians were putting up very poor resistance against the marches to Stalingrad down the Don under Bock and into the Caucuses ...[text shortened]... h resistance, I think my confident would have peaked around the first 2 weeks of July, 1942.
22 Jul 11
Originally posted by sh76Case Blue didn't kick off until June 28, 1942. The Germans didn't reach the Volga until August 23, 1942 or make significant progress in the Caucasus until early to mid August. The height of German territory gained was November 1942 (or perhaps late October 1942 as Rommel was at the El Alamein line then though he had reached that point months earlier) not July.
Hmmm...
I suppose if I were a civilian, Sep. of '42. But if I were a member of the general staff who knew how explosive and dangerous Stalingrad was becoming, I'd say Sep. of '41.
Now, early July of '42 was a different matter. The Russians were putting up very poor resistance against the marches to Stalingrad down the Don under Bock and into the Caucuses ...[text shortened]... h resistance, I think my confident would have peaked around the first 2 weeks of July, 1942.
Case Blue kicked off too late to be successful IMO. The Germans failed to reach the main oil fields in the Caucasus before the weather worsened in October and stopped all offensive operations there by November 9th.
22 Jul 11
Originally posted by no1marauderI didn't even realize it was that late, though the battles of Kharkov and Sevastopol (big German victories) were earlier, IIRC. So maybe I'd change it to August instead of July.
Case Blue didn't kick off until June 28, 1942. The Germans didn't reach the Volga until August 23, 1942 or make significant progress in the Caucasus until early to mid August. The height of German territory gained was November 1942 (or perhaps late October 1942 as Rommel was at the El Alamein line then though he had reached that point months earlier) not ...[text shortened]... re the weather worsened in October and stopped all offensive operations there by November 9th.
By September and October, the strategic decisions that had been made in the summer had probably already thrown away any chance to win the campaign.