Am I the only American scared?

Originally posted by Nemesio
I'm not trying to pick on you, but don't you think ambivalence on this
issue is akin to tacit support? That is, right now you, Delmer, YOU
could be held for no reason whatsoever for as long as the government
wanted. Or your mother, or your children, without even providing proof
(which means, there doesn't have to be any).

During and after WWI ...[text shortened]... iety, or at least I can't think of a case in recent
or even distant memory.

Nemesio

I'm not being ambivalent, Nemesio!!! I'm against all politicians!!! I'm against all government control!!!

Originally posted by sonhouse
In my opinion, I think the right wing bottom feeding scum sucking politicians running the country right now were jumping for joy on 9-11.
They knew instantly they had a grip on the country like hadn't happened since WWII, the cold war and the civil war like you said.
9-11 played right into their zombie bloodsucking selfcongratulatory
religious right jelly brained hands.

And this is exactly why it is insane to ever believe that it is possible for people to work together for long. Individuals hate other individuals. Individuals momentarily form groups and mistakenly believe they are no longer alone, but within each group individuals vie for power, and the groups hate other groups and nothing fundamental changes. We're born alone. We live alone. We die alone. Every man hates every other man. That's the way of the world. X hates the right because X does not agree with the right, because the right is not X. And Y hates X because X is not Y. That's just how it is.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Habeas Corpus can be suspended for on-soil, American citizens.

This means that the road is being paved to having a police state,
wherein anyone can be held for any amount of time for any reason.

Doesn't this bother someone other than me?

Nemesio

Bothered, yes. Scared, no.

Life is short and fear makes it shorter.

The United States stopped being the "land of the free" a long time ago. Things are bad and will get worse. We are no more secure today than were the settlers the government lured into trespassing on Indian land in the mid-nineteenth century.

If you want freedom from fear, work for justice.

Originally posted by crownjewel82
Ok first off, California didn't outlaw smoking. They outlawed public smoking. And since I have asthma and frequently deal with rude smokers, no I didn't mind. (Not saying all smokers are rude, just a lot of the ones I encounter are.)

So they should be sensitive to your needs but you can completely disregard their rights...

Makes sense to me...

Originally posted by crownjewel82
....the change to the law listed here http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:4:./temp/~c1099RgwHN:e116515: only apply to non-citizens accused of involvement in terrorisim. They can't remove habeas corpus for citizens because it's a constitutionally protected right. Yes unconstitutional laws have been passed before but removing a constitutionally pr ...[text shortened]... he first real rebellion against this nations government since Shay's more than 200 years ago.

Everyone seems to have skipped over your post.
Sometimes facts are an inconvenience.

There never was a freedom from disenchantment.

Originally posted by crownjewel82
Ok first off, California didn't outlaw smoking. They outlawed public smoking. And since I have asthma and frequently deal with rude smokers, no I didn't mind. (Not saying all smokers are rude, just a lot of the ones I encounter are.)

Secondly, the change to the law listed here http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:4:./temp/~c1099RgwHN:e116515: ...[text shortened]... first real rebellion against this nations government since Shay's more than 200 years ago.

Yes, but they can accuse you without any substance to their accusations, since there is no requirement for there to be any evidence!

Originally posted by crownjewel82
Ok first off, California didn't outlaw smoking. They outlawed public smoking. And since I have asthma and frequently deal with rude smokers, no I didn't mind. (Not saying all smokers are rude, just a lot of the ones I encounter are.)

Secondly, the change to the law listed here http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:4:./temp/~c1099RgwHN:e116515: first real rebellion against this nations government since Shay's more than 200 years ago.

You are incorrect: citizens do not have greater Habeas Corpus rights than non-citizens. Any law restricting Habeas Corpus unless it meets the narrow exceptions ("rebellion or invasion"😉 in the US Constitution is invalid.

EDIT: The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

US Constitution, Article I, Section 9

Originally posted by whodey
I think you will find that you only have rights in so far as the state has an interest in enforcing those rights on the books and you will find that the state tends to enforce those rights only to the extent that they have a will to do so. I don't think this has ever changed, rather, I think that you are simply witnessing it happening to you or those around you for the first time.

You really need to study the political philosophy this country is based on.

Originally posted by Delmer
And this is exactly why it is insane to ever believe that it is possible for people to work together for long. Individuals hate other individuals. Individuals momentarily form groups and mistakenly believe they are no longer alone, but within each group individuals vie for power, and the groups hate other groups and nothing fundamental changes. We're born alo ...[text shortened]... e right, because the right is not X. And Y hates X because X is not Y. That's just how it is.

Is this why socialism will never work?

Is this why capitalism could be successful? Every man (or woman) for himself?

Personally, I think capitalism is the lesser of 2 evils.

Originally posted by monster truck
Is this why socialism will never work?

Is this why capitalism could be successful? Every man (or woman) for himself?

Personally, I think capitalism is the lesser of 2 evils.

What do you think about unitarian vs. conferation vs. federalism?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Habeas Corpus can be suspended for on-soil, American citizens.

This means that the road is being paved to having a police state,
wherein anyone can be held for any amount of time for any reason.

Doesn't this bother someone other than me?

Nemesio

isnt this the case already for 95% of the planet's people under american justice?

to include the local population in guantanamo bay only seems natural.

Originally posted by pizzintea
What do you think about unitarian vs. conferation vs. federalism?

Interesting question! Will have a look and let you know.

Originally posted by xs
Everyone seems to have skipped over your post.
Sometimes facts are an inconvenience.

There never was a freedom from disenchantment.

It comes as no shock that you would take the time to post just to be a dick, but...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jun2002/hamd-j24.shtml

The document in question says:
[T]he military has the authority to capture and detain individuals whom it has determined are enemy combatants in connection with hostilities in which the Nation is engaged, including enemy combatants claiming American citizenship. Such combatants, moreover, have no right of access to counsel to challenge their detention.”

So, don't tell me that Habeas Corpus exists in any meaningful sense; the government
can simply take you from your home, label you an enemy combatant, and bingo, no
trial for you.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Habeas Corpus can be suspended for on-soil, American citizens.

This means that the road is being paved to having a police state,
wherein anyone can be held for any amount of time for any reason.

Doesn't this bother someone other than me?

Nemesio

The next thing you know, the Government will be secretly and illegally taping telephone conversations....

....oh wait....ermmm....never mind....(click) as phone is replaced, tentatively.