27 Feb 13
Originally posted by sasquatch672In your text you were mocking Kerry for knowing how to speak French. If it's actually a useful skill for a diplomat, as you now concur, why were you criticizing Kerry for knowing how to speak French?
It's not bad for Kerry to speak French. It is bad for the Secretary of State, or the Foreign Minister, of any country to call the people he represents stupid.
Perhaps you don't understand how Kerry is viewed here. He married a billionairess, which is fine. But he is an elitist who believes he is smarter than everyone else. That's the difference. Even liberals will tell you that about him.
27 Feb 13
4 edits
Originally posted by KazetNagorraFor the love of Christ. I speak German, Spanish, a bit of Portuguese and Italian, and some Mandarin. And I can understand Dutch. Mandarin was just for fun. I had to; where I officiated soccer if you couldn't communicate with people the day wouldn't end well for you. It's got nothing to do with the ability to speak a foreign language; that's admirable. It's got everything to do with Kerry feeling himself superior because he speaks French.
In your text you were mocking Kerry for knowing how to speak French. If it's actually a useful skill for a diplomat, as you now concur, why were you criticizing Kerry for knowing how to speak French?
Got it? Or did you log on to FMF's account?
Why do I have to explain everything?
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by sasquatch672Zelfs Nederlanders begrijpen Nederlands niet.
For the love of Christ. I speak German, Spanish, a bit of Portuguese and Italian, and some Mandarin. And I can understand Dutch. Mandarin was just for fun. I had to; where I officiated soccer if you couldn't communicate with people the day wouldn't end well for you. It's got nothing to do with the ability to speak a foreign language; that's admira ...[text shortened]...
Got it? Or did you log on to FMF's account?
Why do I have to explain everything?
Why do you feel that Kerry thinks himself superior because he speaks French?
I watched the YouTube clip. Did not really find anything remarkable in there. He seemed to be alluding to the Westboro Baptist Church and implying they are stupid. Then he is saying that he would defend the right of people to protest peacefully even though he might strongly disagree with them. He's not saying that "Americans are stupid" or anything of the sort. Surely you agree that some people, American or not, are stupid, and if they want to protest something peacefully, they should be able to? Would you not say that the Westboro Baptist Church protesters, for instance, are stupid?
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by SoothfastWilli Brandt was the mayor of Berlin (though he was born in Lubeck). Incidentally, the kind of doughnut known as a Berliner elsewhere in Germany is called a Pfannkuchen in Berlin. Why? Because it was invented in Berlin and became known as a Berliner when it spread to other cities.
[/i]Near as I understand from what my very good German professor said to us once, it all stems from dialect. Unless Willi Brandt was from Berlin it's possible it wouldn't occur to him that Berliners would omit the "ein" as a matter of course. Or perhaps he was aware of it, but felt "ein" should be included since he knew the speech was going to be heard by ...[text shortened]... rman instructors have ever said that it's okay. My textbooks also don't permit it.
But in fact I don't think it's anything to do with dialect; the omission of "ein" is standard in German when referring to a literal native of a city - but not in the metaphorical situation in which Kennedy was speaking.
If you want a better source than Wikipedia, how's this, quoting an academic analysis by a German linguist?
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner_2.htm
Laying decades of misinformation to rest, linguist Jürgen Eichhoff undertook a concise grammatical analysis of Kennedy's statement for the academic journal Monatshefte in 1993. "'Ich bin ein Berliner' is not only correct," Eichhoff wrote, "but the one and only correct way of expressing in German what the President intended to say."
An actual Berliner would say, in proper German, "Ich bin Berliner." But that wouldn't have been the correct phrase for Kennedy to use. The indefinite article "ein" is required, Eichhoff explained, to express a metaphorical identification between subject and predicate. Otherwise, the speaker could be taken to say he is literally a citizen of Berlin, which was not Kennedy's intention.
To give another example, the German sentences "Er ist Politiker" and "Er ist ein Politiker" both mean "He is a politician," but they're understood by German speakers as different statements with different meanings. The first means, more exactly, "He is (literally) a politician." The second means "He is (like) a politician." You would say of Barack Obama, "Er ist Politiker." But you would say of an organizationally astute coworker, "Er ist ein Politiker."
So, while the proper way for a Berlin resident to say "I am a Berliner" is "Ich bin Berliner," the proper way for a non-resident to say he's a Berliner in spirit is precisely what Kennedy said: "Ich bin ein Berliner." In spite of the fact that it can also be the correct way to say "I am a jelly donut," no adult German speaker could possibly have misunderstood Kennedy's meaning in context, or regarded it as a mistake.
The man who actually translated the words into German for JFK is was Robert Lochner, the son of Associated Press correspondent Louis P. Lochner. The younger Lochner, educated in Berlin and a fluent speaker of German, was Kennedy's official interpreter on his visit to Germany. Lochner translated the phrase on paper then rehearsed it with JFK in Berlin Mayor Willy Brandt's office right up to the moment the speech was to be delivered.
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by TeinosukeYour argument is convincing, but even if he had got it wrong, the response of the crowd indicated they didn't mind.
Willi Brandt was the mayor of Berlin (though he was born in Lubeck). Incidentally, the kind of doughnut known as a Berliner elsewhere in Germany is called a Pfannkuchen in Berlin. Why? Because it was invented in Berlin and became known as a Berliner when it spread to other cities.
But in fact I don't think it's anything to do with dialect; the omission ...[text shortened]... p to the moment the speech was to be delivered.[/i]
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by DeepThoughtExactly, given the context of the speech, i.e a besieged city, it was pretty obvious what the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet was saying.
Your argument is convincing, but even if he had got it wrong, the response of the crowd indicated they didn't mind.
I do not imagine the Soviet interpreters thought, or reported, that JFK had called himself a jelly doughnut either.
"Much ado about nothing" or what.
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by KazetNagorraI would have chosen my words far more carefully than he did, lest he get some wild-eyed conservative like me needlessly up in arms.
Zelfs Nederlanders begrijpen Nederlands niet.
Why do you feel that Kerry thinks himself superior because he speaks French?
I watched the YouTube clip. Did not really find anything remarkable in there. He seemed to be alluding to the Westboro Baptist Church and implying they are stupid. Then he is saying that he would defend the right of people to ...[text shortened]... to? Would you not say that the Westboro Baptist Church protesters, for instance, are stupid?
You won't know this, unless you pay extremely close attention. The Erican media are always complaining how Obama and anyone who works for him are always being "taken out of context". Always. Why do they continue to say things that are so easily misinterpreted?
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by SoothfastAs mentioned above, this is not a fact. The pastry in question is called a Berliner everywhere except for Berlin.
It is a fact that in Berlin -- and only in Berlin -- the pastry in question is called simply a "Berliner," and it must be referred to with the "ein" placed before it.
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by sasquatch672"so easily misinterpreted"
I would have chosen my words far more carefully than he did, lest he get some wild-eyed conservative like me needlessly up in arms.
You won't know this, unless you pay extremely close attention. The Erican media are always complaining how Obama and anyone who works for him are always being "taken out of context". Always. Why do they continue to say things that are so easily misinterpreted?
They're not. People with agendas deliberately take things out of context and then the willfully ignorant or downright stupid masses are fooled by them.
27 Feb 13
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperPretty well explains Democrat politicians and people who vote for them.
"so easily misinterpreted"
They're not. People with agendas deliberately take things out of context and then the willfully ignorant or downright stupid masses are fooled by them.
27 Feb 13
1 edit
Originally posted by TeinosukeStrange. Okay. Seemingly my textbooks and every resource I can find on this particular issue is outright wrong or false. I wonder how it could be so.
As mentioned above, this is not a fact. The pastry in question is called a Berliner everywhere except for Berlin.
The only thing I can rely on is mathematics. Everything else just seems to be S H I T -- especially anything having to do with humans, their languages, and their cultures and histories. Oh well. I never had much stock in the human race anyway.
Thanks, though. I know when I'm beaten.
