26 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettShould I ever go on vacation to another state or country?
Cars, by their nature, are made in a variety of places. Parts from here, parts from there, parts from everywhere. It isn't possible to buy an "American" made car anymore.
But to answer your question, I don't want anyone else to buy Michigan products. I hope they don't. I want them to buy their own locally made products. And we should buy ours. Everyone will be better off for it.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by telerionSpare me.
And to think I was nice enough not to say the same to you after your last post.
BTW it's actually a very fair question if you give just a little thought.
You can't get Paris locally. Or Mexico. Or Ougadougou. by definition you have to go there to experience those things. But I can get my asparagus locally. And so I shall. I'll do what I can to preserve Michigan farming families instead of helping to ship all their jobs to Peru.
26 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettSo where would you draw the "local" line? Would it be 5 miles, 10 miles, 20 miles etc?
Spare me.
You can't get Paris locally. Or Mexico. Or Ougadougou. by definition you have to go there to experience those things. But I can get my asparagus locally. And so I shall. I'll do what I can to preserve Michigan farming families instead of helping to ship all their jobs to Peru.
By the way I loooove asparagus!! Now if I can just determine if we are "local" perhaps I can buy some in your neck of the woods.
Edit: Do you feel the same way about health care by any chance? Should we have local health care plans instead of national ones? If so, perhaps we have a few things in common after all!!
26 Aug 09
Be free to buy what you want, and you will generally do best for yourself, your values, and society.
Be ordered to listen to someone else's grand vision and you will generally distort the market towards inefficient losses for more people and for more of of society.
Buy freely and learn from your experiences to buy better towards your goal.
Buy educated... heck throw comparison shop in there.
It leads to good outcome to buy freely and see better outcomes without heavy restrictions.
26 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettIf you are going to make the argument that drinking margaritas in Cabo is a different good than doing the same "locally," then one can easily make the same argument that produce, clothing, or durable goods are also different goods.
Spare me.
You can't get Paris locally. Or Mexico. Or Ougadougou. by definition you have to go there to experience those things. But I can get my asparagus locally. And so I shall. I'll do what I can to preserve Michigan farming families instead of helping to ship all their jobs to Peru.
There are two reasons to think that these are different goods. First, often foreign produce is sold locally often because it is out of season in the local area. You admit as much when you write that you often change your diet to conform to what is available locally. Why do that when you can just pass your favorite produce as not available. Interestingly, in all of the areas that I've lived, when local produce is in season it is cheaper than imported food, yet both are purchased. Imports, then, are a substitute to some degree but not a perfect substitute.
Second, the quality of goods may be substantially different. I could just point out the Michigan auto industry, but there are other examples. German pilsners or hefeweizens are much better than any American microbrew pils or hef that I've ever tasted. Local furniture may be acceptable, but fine quality leather or wood furniture typically comes from different parts of the country. American electronics? How about Japanese. American chocolate? Swiss. Again local goods can be substitutes for imports but often are not perfect substitutes.
If spending valuable vacation dollars elsewhere rather than in your local community is okay with you because Michigan just isn't Paris, then you should get off other people's backs for buying imports because often they just aren't the same as local items.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by telerionIt is neither possible nor desirable for people to buy everything locally. The point that I have been making is that they should buy MORE locally. In the example I gave earlier, if every Michigan family spent a mere $10 a week more on local products, it would result in $37 million more per week staying in the Michigan economy. Over a year that's nearly $2 billion that is being spent to support local jobs and the local economy.
If you are going to make the argument that drinking margaritas in Cabo is a different good than doing the same "locally," then one can easily make the same argument that produce, clothing, or durable goods are also different goods.
There are two reasons to think that these are different goods. First, often foreign produce is sold locally often because ...[text shortened]... people's backs for buying imports because often they just aren't the same as local items.
My wife and I drink a lot of wine. Variety is important, so we buy it from all over the world. France, Spain, Argentina, California, etc. But we also make sure to support Michigan's growing wine industry. We always make sure our rapidly rotating stock includes some Michigan wines. The same is true for beer. I buy imports as it suits me, but I also spend a large percentage of my dollars on local micro brews. For products where variety is not important, like asparagus, I will ALWAYS buy it locally if I can get it.
The result of buying more of our groceries at the farmer's market is that we try to eat more "in season". We purchase more of what is seasonally available and tailor our diet to that. Lima beans are in season now, so that influences our menu. For products which are always available, like meat, cheese and eggs, we buy those almost exclusively at the farmer's market now.
The point is for people to take control of their purchasing power instead of being random consumers. Instead of being a clueless shopper, picking items willy-nilly off the shelf, I have a definite order of priority these days:
1. Locally made
2. Union made
3. American made
4. Fair Trade
5. Smaller is better
These are not ironclad rules, but guides that I employ depending on what is being purchased.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by whodeyThere is no line. But closer is better. Our farmer's market is a mile away. This trumps California produce where applicable. My tennis shoes were made in New England. This trumps shoes made in China.
So where would you draw the "local" line? Would it be 5 miles, 10 miles, 20 miles etc?
By the way I loooove asparagus!! Now if I can just determine if we are "local" perhaps I can buy some in your neck of the woods.
Edit: Do you feel the same way about health care by any chance? Should we have local health care plans instead of national ones? If so, perhaps we have a few things in common after all!!
Sorry about health care. Since I do not believe that health care is an appropriate venue for the profit motive to operate, I am a strong advocate of national health care. I look forward to seeing you HEAVILY taxed to support it. 😛
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettBetter for your local businesses - and maybe you as a result, but not better for the poor employees of the Chinese sweat shop.
They were more expensive than I've paid in the past, but it's better than supporting some sweat shop in China.
My primary reason for buying local is not environmental. It is economic. We live in Michigan, for example. It is said that if every family spent $10 more on Michigan products per week, it would translate to $37 million more per week that is going into the local economy. This can only be a good thing.
Again, it is a good thing for you and your local economy, a bad thing for everyone else. I am not saying you are 'wrong', just pointing out that it is not good for everyone.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettBut it is also political and economic closeness that you take into account is it not? If you lived near the Mexican border you would still buy from Alaska rather than Mexico.
There is no line. But closer is better. Our farmer's market is a mile away. This trumps California produce where applicable. My tennis shoes were made in New England. This trumps shoes made in China.
26 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf China wants to compete for my dollars then they're going to have to raise wages. A lot. How will that affect Chinese workers?
Better for your local businesses - and maybe you as a result, but not better for the poor employees of the Chinese sweat shop.
My primary reason for buying local is not environmental. It is economic. We live in Michigan, for example. It is said that if every family spent $10 more on Michigan products per week, it would translate to $37 million more one else. I am not saying you are 'wrong', just pointing out that it is not good for everyone.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadThese type of games may amuse you, but I find them tiresome. If you apply yourself, I bet you can find an even more meaningless detail somewhere else to occupy you.
But it is also political and economic closeness that you take into account is it not? If you lived near the Mexican border you would still buy from Alaska rather than Mexico.
26 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettTw's question is a very good one and one that I hope you will give another look. Lest you feel set upon and for this reason defensive, you should know that I at least am not trying to show you wrong for your purchasing habits. I just chalk it up to preferences which, at least in terms of economics, cannot be wrong. Eating "in season" produce sounds like fun and sampling local goods adds a nice "warm glow" feeling to the purchase. My only dispute with you is over the aggregate economic benefits of everyone buying local. I am very sure that on net there are actually significant costs in terms of lost efficiency from such policies.
These type of games may amuse you, but I find them tiresome. If you apply yourself, I bet you can find an even more meaningless detail somewhere else to occupy you.
Another question for you (or some one else if they choose to consider it.). Do you believe in supporting local exporters? One the one hand they are people in your community too, but on the other they encourage others not to buy local which in your opinion causes harm in the aggregate. Since most of these exporters sell locally as well, do you encourage them to limit their market to Michigan? Assuming that you don't, why should local sellers be exempt from your rule of thumb but not consumers?
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by telerionI agree
Tw's question is a very good one and one that I hope you will give another look. Lest you feel set upon and for this reason defensive, you should know that I at least am not trying to show you wrong for your purchasing habits. I just chalk it up to preferences which, at least in terms of economics, cannot be wrong. Eating "in season" produce sounds like ...[text shortened]... t you don't, why should local sellers be exempt from your rule of thumb but not consumers?
should there be a "Sell Local" ethic for businesses?
if everyone was to "Buy Local" regardless of price, all businesses would end up having no choice but to "Sell Local".