06 Feb 05
Originally posted by N I KN = R* x f(p) x n(e) x f(l) x f(i) x f(c) x L
i would like to extend the debate more openly to the existence of aliens in general.
Where:
N = number of radio-transmitting civilizations in the universe
R* = Rate of Sol-like stars creation
f(p) = Fraction of such stars with planets
n(e) = Average number of habitable planets around such stars which have planets.
f(l) = Probability of Life
f(i) = Probability of Intelligence
f(c) = Probability of Civilization
L = Average lifetime of technological civilizations.
And there we have the answer. There can be no debate.
(Thanks Frank Drake)
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by N I KI assume you mean aliens of the planet earth on the planet earth. But why stop at aliens? Why not dwarves living deep underground? Why not amzing intelligent sea creatures made entirely out of light (which is probably more likely than space aliens)? Why do you want aliens to exist so badly?
i would like to extend the debate more openly to the existence of aliens in general.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by N I KThe chances of allien existence are just so incredibly high that they cant be ignored... I think any reasonable person would agree with that.
i would like to extend the debate more openly to the existence of aliens in general.
So im just going to assume they exist.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardPerhaps you would like to expand on this, as I disagree that the chances are incredibly high. If we consider the universe to be infinite, then obviously the chance exists, but let's forget that for a moment.
The chances of allien existence are just so incredibly high that they cant be ignored... I think any reasonable person would agree with that.
So im just going to assume they exist.
Considering the existence of the human race, taking into account both the evolutionary unlikelyhood, the periods of time involved and the numbr of known places that show no life, our own existence is nigh on improbable. Now multiply that by 2 and you get somewhere close to the possibilities of life elsewhere. Now take into account that that life would have to be so amazingly advanced as to cross billions of light years to reach us I think we can safely say that intelligent extra-terrestrial life visiting earth us as close to impossible as anything we can think of.
However let's just consider the existence of life in any form, on any of the other planets anywhere (even if this is bacterial), then I concede it is possible, it's just far from incredibly high.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaullol i'm not saying i want them to exist so badly, i'm just wondering what people's views on them are and so on. but indeed, lets not stop at aliens-but continue to any living forms throughout the universe.😲
I assume you mean aliens of the planet earth on the planet earth. But why stop at aliens? Why not dwarves living deep underground? Why not amzing intelligent sea creatures made entirely out of light (which is probably more likely than space aliens)? Why do you want aliens to exist so badly?
06 Feb 05
1 edit
Originally posted by StarrmanThe way you state it is like : "the chances of other HUMAN life outside earth are incredibly low" you assumed these alliens came to life/evolved in the same way we did. While we dont even know how our own life came into existence. There are only theories about this.
Perhaps you would like to expand on this, as I disagree that the chances are incredibly high. If we consider the universe to be infinite, then obviously the chance exists, but let's forget that for a moment.
Considering the existence ...[text shortened]... hen I concede it is possible, it's just far from incredibly high.
We have already found fossilised bacteria outside of earth so we already have proof that at some point allien life existed.
This combined with our knowlege on how incredibly large we already know the universe is, and the tiny fraction of it that we have explored so far leads me to believe the chances of allien existence are well above 99.9%.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardthats a very good point, am i strongly agree with you.
The way you state it is like : "the chances of other HUMAN life outside earth are incredibly low" you assumed these alliens came to life/evolved in the same way we did. While we dont even know how our own life came into existence. There are only theories about this.
We have already found fossilised bacteria outside of earth so we already have ...[text shortened]... e have explored so far leads me to believe the chances of allien existence are well above 99.9%.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulThey (the alien probes) are obviously checking how well the bacteria are doing in our intestines. Afterall, we are only one of their experiments.
You never heard of that prefered alien passtime? Amazingly, it always seems to happen in the deep American south among undereducated hillbillies. Odd that.
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06 Feb 05
Originally posted by StarrmanI have some problems with your premise. First of all, we don't know that the universe in infinite, but we do know that we have seen 200 billion stars in our own Milky Way galaxy. We also have seen about 150 other galaxies to date.
Perhaps you would like to expand on this, as I disagree that the chances are incredibly high. If we consider the universe to be infinite, then obviously the chance exists, but let's forget that for a moment.
Considering the existence of the human race, taking into account both the evolutionary unlikelyhood, the periods of time involved and the numbr of ...[text shortened]... (even if this is bacterial), then I concede it is possible, it's just far from incredibly high.
So that's 30 trillion stars. (slightly more than the U.S. debt, but that's another story). I would think out of that huge number there would be more than one place in the universe that has life.
Secondly, some scientists now suspect that life came to earth by the comet. They state that each comet holds 1 cubic km of water! Nobody seems to know how the comets were formed or where they come from, but they are everywhere.
Some people are afraid that there are other civilizations. It would blow the whole idea that there is a God who made only us.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by arrakisWell, that's kind of unfair bringing religion into a civilized conversation about space aliens. Let's try to stick with one fictional account at a time, all right?
I have some problems with your premise. First of all, we don't know that the universe in infinite, but we do know that we have seen 200 billion stars in our own Milky Way galaxy. We also have seen about 150 other galaxies to date.
So that's 30 trillion stars. (slightly more than the U.S. debt, but that's another story). I would think out of that huge ...[text shortened]... other civilizations. It would blow the whole idea that there is a God who made only us.
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06 Feb 05
Originally posted by arrakisI think we're missing each other on the same road of reason 🙂
I have some problems with your premise. First of all, we don't know that the universe in infinite, but we do know that we have seen 200 billion stars in our own Milky Way galaxy. We also have seen about 150 other galaxies to date.
So that's 30 trillion stars. (slightly more than the U.S. debt, but that's another story). I would think out of that huge ...[text shortened]... other civilizations. It would blow the whole idea that there is a God who made only us.
You're saying that the fact that there are so many worlds out there is a good thing in terms of increasing the likelyhood of life. I would argue that it is a bad thing because from what we know of these places the vast majority are either gaseous balls of white hot death, or solid, cold or highly radioactive, worlds where nothing changes and life could not be supported. Let's just clarify that life needs certain things to survive, gravity has to be within a certain range, temperature, sunlight, radioactivity, water must be present. And I'm not talking about human life here, I'm talking about biological carbon based lifeforms. There is a possibility of other chemical bases for life, but in order for these to work, prerequisites are also required and they are not that different from ours. Stray to far from one point of chemical stability and all sorts of things fall to pieces, metabolic cycles, photosynthesis, DNA chains etc..
So, knowing that the vast majority of planets and systems out there are completely incapable of supporting biological life and that the factors which allow life to exist are so very small a range of conditions, does it not seem more likely now, that there is unlikely to be suitable conditions out there? Even if there was a planet where these conditions were suitable, the likelyhood of life being there is still remarkably small.
As to the comet idea, this is still very much an unresearched idea and does not come anywhere near to fully explaining the diversity and spread of life on earth.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by StarrmanYou stated that any form of life as we know it could not be able to live on these planets we already know. Is it so hard to imagine that there are other life forms out there that can live under other circumstances?
I think we're missing each other on the same road of reason 🙂
You're saying that the fact that there are so many worlds out there is a good thing in terms of increasing the likelyhood of life. I would argue that it is a bad thing because from what we know of these places the vast majority are either gaseous balls of white hot death, or solid, cold or ...[text shortened]... a and does not come anywhere near to fully explaining the diversity and spread of life on earth.
Humans cant live under water, does that mean life under water is impossible? We only know so little about nature.
07 Feb 05
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Getting back to the original topic of crop circles, I read an interesting book called Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs (yes, that's his real name) claiming that genuine crop circles have electromagnetic anomalies, such as causing compass needles to spin, emitting radiation, etc.
As for the possibility that the universe is teeming with life, the TV series More Big Questions with physicist Paul Davies tells how unlikely it is that life came into existence independently anywhere else.
07 Feb 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Peter XHow can we know how unlikely it is if we dont even know how our own life came into existence?
Getting back to the original topic of crop circles, I read an interesting book called Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs (yes, that's his real name) claiming that genuine crop circles have electromagnetic anomalies, such as causing compass needles ...[text shortened]... y it is that life came into existence independently anywhere else.
You should not just believe all the crap that they tell you on tv without thinking for yourself.