23 Nov 07
Originally posted by KellyJayYou my friend, are truly an idiot and that's how I will label you.
Okay, it does not matter why you called her that, you do label her
by her core beliefs, shs is a Christian. I like you think of people as
people, you can still treat her with the respect you should as you
do others too, not denying that, but you have now not only labeled
her a Christian, you defined her by saying she is one, because that
is what she is.
Kelly
I mentioned her and other's christianity merely to point out that I do know that some people around me are christian. I do not define them by this - you may, which is fine - I don't.
Get over it ...
23 Nov 07
Originally posted by amannionOkay, name calling during a discussion.
You my friend, are truly an idiot and that's how I will label you.
I mentioned her and other's christianity merely to point out that I do know that some people around me are christian. I do not define them by this - you may, which is fine - I don't.
Get over it ...
Come back to this post in a day or two when you can do it without the
emotion, stress, or whatever it is that makes you drop to calling me
an idiot while we were just talking.
Kelly
23 Nov 07
Originally posted by KellyJayThat's just the point, calling someone an atheist does not tell you anything about them or their beliefs. There are atheists that do not believe in evolution, there are atheists who do not even believe in the world! Atheism as a term is not descriptive beyond an absence of belief in god, which is not a description at all. To call someone a christian, you instantly have some idea of the mythology and morality that they have grown up with. Similarly with buddhism, judaism etc. By calling myself an atheist, do you have, by that word alone, have any idea of my childhood stories, morality or world-view? No of course not. You can't because atheists are not a group in the first place. They are people who have either never been part of a religious grouping, or once were and have since left.
...The promotion of a view
about the universe and all that is in it to a particular set of beliefs
define atheist a certain way!
Kelly
In the line I qouted above, you mention "a view" and "a particular" but the point I (and amannion) are trying to get across to you are that atheists, to use the term, do not have a single view or a particular set of beliefs with which you can define us. Atheist is a vestigial word, which is what was being said in the article.
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by KellyJayTalking?
Okay, name calling during a discussion.
Come back to this post in a day or two when you can do it without the
emotion, stress, or whatever it is that makes you drop to calling me
an idiot while we were just talking.
Kelly
A post or so ago you were laughing at me.
If you want to talk that's fine, but it goes both ways bud.
If you want a reasonable discussion, I'm all for it, but don't cry wolf when someone sinks to your level.
24 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by agrysonedit
That's just the point, calling someone an atheist does not tell you anything about them or their beliefs. There are atheists that do not believe in evolution, there are atheists who do not even believe in the world! Atheism as a term is not descriptive beyond an absence of belief in god, which is not a description at all. To call someone a christian, you ins u can define us. Atheist is a vestigial word, which is what was being said in the article.
24 Nov 07
3 edits
Originally posted by amannionI have not laughed at you to cause you grief or belittle you. I thought
Talking?
A post or so ago you were laughing at me.
If you want to talk that's fine, but it goes both ways bud.
If you want a reasonable discussion, I'm all for it, but don't cry wolf when someone sinks to your level.
you would have seen right away that you in the same breath said
you don't like applying labels as you tell me about those you have
applied them too. I was also agreeing with you that it does not matter
what label we apply we are all people that should be treated with
caring and respect. I thought we were in agreement there too, all the
way up to your name calling.
Kelly
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by agrysonYou want to claim I cannot lump atheist together because they do not
That's just the point, calling someone an atheist does not tell you anything about them or their beliefs. There are atheists that do not believe in evolution, there are atheists who do not even believe in the world! Atheism as a term is not descriptive beyond an absence of belief in god, which is not a description at all. To call someone a christian, you ins ...[text shortened]... u can define us. Atheist is a vestigial word, which is what was being said in the article.
all believe the same things the same way, I would ask for you to tell
me why thiest than are lumped together when they are the same way?
Theist don't all accept the same things the same way either; does
mean we do not hold some notions about reality in common? No there
are things we do hold in common as do atheist. I gave you my views
on what an athiest believes already which is a godless universe from
beginning to end, unless you want to tell me that you believe God or
some god or gods were involved at some point, and you just want to
reject them anyway?
Kelly
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by KellyJayI can see what you're trying to say, but this would be much easier if you had read the article in its entirety, it was a speech, not a newspaper clipping, you can't just dip into a paragraph in a speech and expect to "get the gist" of what they're saying. The reason that it is innaccurate to refer to atheists all as one group is the same reason that it is innaccurate to refer to all people who do not believe in astrology as one group, or all people who are not racists in one group or all people who are not French into one group. You could invent a word for any of those, but it would be a vestigial word and likely wouldn't get adopted into every day language. Atheism for some reason has because of the old and outdated assumption that atheists all believed teh same thing.
You want to claim I cannot lump atheist together because they do not
all believe the same things the same way, I would ask for you to tell
me why thiest than are lumped together when they are the same way?
Theist don't all accept the same things the same way either; does
mean we do not hold some notions about reality in common? No there
are things ...[text shortened]... ome god or gods were involved at some point, and you just want to
reject them anyway?
Kelly
Also, your views on what an atheist believes are, and I intend no offence with this, absolutley worthless. Why? Because being an atheist myself I should know a thing or two about my own beliefs more than you do and as for other "atheists" there is no one set or even single belief that all atheists would agree too.
Case in point is Douglas Adams, writer of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, he was once asked why doesn't he believe in god? His response was that he doesn't not believe in god, there's no belief about it, he's convinced there's no god.
Please, the article I posted goes into a better explanation, I would ask that you read it in its entirety if these ideas really do interest or aggrevate you, I know it's long, but nothing over a cup of tea long. The time it takes to write a long post (such as this one) would be enought o finish it.
24 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by agrysonI got that and still disagree with him, you are able to lump all those
I can see what you're trying to say, but this would be much easier if you had read the article in its entirety, it was a speech, not a newspaper clipping, you can't just dip into a paragraph in a speech and expect to "get the gist" of what they're saying. The reason that it is innaccurate to refer to atheists all as one group is the same reason that it is in ime it takes to write a long post (such as this one) would be enought o finish it.
people into a single group by giving a 'definition' and a simple one
just by saying what it is they all have in common. Now does that mean
that they don't all behave the exact same way? Just as I pointed out
to you not all Christians behave the exact same way so there isn't
really any special about that either. All people are different and should
be afforded the right to make their own views or thoughts about any
subject clear, including what you think they believe, as a matter
of fact as soon as you say, this guy is a Christian, he is believes 'this'
you have just done to the Christian what you want the atheist to not
have done to them!
I also disagree about not being able to come up with a word to describe
the "not this or not that" that happens all the time, but it isn't always
necessary required so it isn't always done, but the more people do or say
the clearer they define themselves. Some one who could care less about
a subject are apathetic which is what I think your writer was shooting for
but failing since he is engaged in the debate if God or gods are real and
pushes a position. That basically has him opposing the notion which
isn’t an apathetic stance so there are prefix or suffix ‘anti’ or ‘less’ that
come to mind for opposition such as anti-Christ or the godless.
You can describe yourself as an atheist too, everyone knows then that
you are without a belief in God or gods or don’t believe in God or
gods (a distinction without a difference), but the more you do and say
the more other words will apply to you just as they do Christians.
Kelly
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by whodeyYES THATS MY POINT!
If aliens were responsible for my existence or had a hand in my being here then I would feel a debt of gratitude. It is only natural....or at least, should be. What about your parents? For example, are you thankful that they brought you into the world?
Aliens didn't put me here. My parents did and I'm grateful to them, nobody else put me on this earth but THEM!