Death panels vs throwing grandma off cliff

Originally posted by sh76
Oh okay, I thought you were making a general statement. The link doesn't seem to work so I haven't even seen the ad in the OP.

On THIS particular issue I think my statement is generally true, but not overall on every issue.

Ryan's plan scares and angers people based on its own, truthful merit. In contrast lie after lie was told about health care reform. "Death panels", "Government takeover", etc.

Originally posted by whodey
I have to say its a nice change from FMF trying to muster up anything I may have said in the last 10 years that could be used against me even if it means twisting what I"ve said in the past.

No twisting. No ten years ago. You were spreading the Death Panels propaganda here in this online community only last year in 2010 while the issue was still being debated. Now it suits you to distance yourself from the deceitful sensationalism, but you do so without any grace or honesty. Your M.O., in a nutshell.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
On THIS particular issue I think my statement is generally true, but not overall on every issue.

Ryan's plan scares and angers people based on its own, truthful merit. In contrast lie after lie was told about health care reform. "Death panels", "Government takeover", etc.

I think the Obama healthcare plan "scared and angered people based on its own, truthful merit" as well. Yes, lies were told about it; but that's true when any government proposes an initiative, especially about SS and Medicare.

I'll tell you a quick true story.

As you may recall in the 2005 State of the Union, President Bush announced a new initiative to try to save social security. As happens when any politician touches this third rail of American politics and tried to tinker with these sacred cows, his proposal was lambasted with a slew of (mostly) misinformation and the plan was strangled in its cradle.

During this time, I was speaking to my then 83 year old grandmother on the phone and she says "S---, you tell YOUR President to get his grubby mitts off of MY social security."

Now, this was after the President, in his speech and in the course of every proposal, specifically emphasized that the proposal would NOT AFFECT anyone over the age of 55 in 2005.

Now, my grandmother obviously wasn't into delving deeply into political issues. Like most 80-somethings, she got her news by watching afternoon news programs (you can't watch the late night shows when you're in bed by 8) and Sunday morning talk shows.

The mainstream media and the intentional Democratic misinformation campaign had somehow managed to convince my 83 year old grandmother than the President was threatening her social security when, in fact, he had gone out of his way to assure that he was doing no such thing.

This is the way politics work in the US, unfortunately. The death panels campaign was nothing new. I don't know who invented this strategy, but BOTH parties take full advantage of it. There's no "clean hands" party here.

Originally posted by sh76
I think the Obama healthcare plan "scared and angered people based on its own, truthful merit" as well. Yes, lies were told about it; but that's true when any government proposes an initiative, especially about SS and Medicare.

I'll tell you a quick true story.

As you may recall in the 2005 State of the Union, President Bush announced a new initiative to ...[text shortened]... y, but BOTH parties take full advantage of it. There's no "clean hands" party here.

Sorry, but you're drawing a false equivelancy between the HCR rhetoric and that of Ryan's plan.

All polls showed a HUGE percent of the population believing it was a government takeover, contained death panels, etc. And being totally honest I have never debated a single person (in person) about HCR who did not believe these lies.

In contrast pretty much everyone knows Ryan's plan is to end Medicare as we know it and replace it was a voucher program that amounts to a coupon to buy private insurance.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Sorry, but you're drawing a false equivelancy between the HCR rhetoric and that of Ryan's plan.

All polls showed a HUGE percent of the population believing it was a government takeover, contained death panels, etc. And being totally honest I have never debated a single person (in person) about HCR who did not believe these lies.

In contrast ...[text shortened]... ow it and replace it was a voucher program that amounts to a coupon to buy private insurance.

Well, I don't think that's what I'm doing... at least that's not what I'm trying to do... but whatever.

You have enough trouble on the other thread with FMF.

Even a trained soldier shouldn't have to fight on two fronts... fatal mistake of Kaiser Wilhelm II and Adolf Hitler... 😛

Originally posted by sh76
Well, I don't think that's what I'm doing... at least that's not what I'm trying to do... but whatever.

You have enough trouble on the other thread with FMF.

Even a trained soldier shouldn't have to fight on two fronts... fatal mistake of Kaiser Wilhelm II and Adolf Hitler... 😛

No, I'm done with him. Two pages worth of my time engaging him, and it all came down to him claiming, "I don't believe you."

What a waste.

Originally posted by sh76
You have enough trouble on the other thread with FMF.

What do you make of those years between the ages of 6 and 10? Think of a 5 year old. Flesh and blood and all. Then think of the same wee devil at 11 years old. For me, it's like - wow. Just wow. Imagine playing that down in order to take a swipe at a failed GOP candidate!

Originally posted by FMF
What do you make of those years between the ages of 6 and 10? Think of a 5 year old. Flesh and blood and all. Then think of the same wee devil at 11 years old. For me, it's like - wow. Just wow. Imagine playing that down in order to take a swipe at a failed GOP candidate!

I agree with you, of course. I think USAP made an honest mistake (I'm sure USAP knew that Obama lived in Indonesia but probably didn't realize it was for that long... I also didn't realize it was for that long). I also, however, think that it was a minor mistake and probably wasn't worth all that sniping back and forth on the other thread.

But, hey, that's what happens. A small mistake leads to a refusal to admit leads to escalation, etc... Hey, the Serbians were willing to accede to virtually all of Austria's demands regarding Gavrilo Princip (According to Martin Gilbert, the Germans later got upset at the Austrians for not telling them that the Serbians were ready to essentially capitulate), but that didn't stop the bloodiest 30 years in world history from ensuing...

Originally posted by sh76
I agree with you, of course. I think USAP made an honest mistake (I'm sure USAP knew that Obama lived in Indonesia but probably didn't realize it was for that long... I also didn't realize it was for that long).

Really? Wow. All that controversy over Obama's birth and youth and citizenship - all of which USAP fielded so well, week in week out here, for months and months - and he suddenly forgot it all when 'Smite a GOP candidate' became the topic?

You think the ages of 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and a 10 are a "short time" in the "growing up" that kids do? Do you think that assertion - repeated over and over and over and over again in his smack down of Huckerbee - was "an honest mistake" too? The first time it was asserted? The third time it was repeated? Every time an honest mistake, even after his error had been pointed out to him?

LOL.

Originally posted by FMF
in order to take a swipe at a failed GOP candidate!

As I've told you over and over and you contiue to ignore -

The snipe is that Huckabee said Obama grew up in KENYA (flatout false), and then later LIED by saying he "meant" to say Indonesia.

Both of those are 100% proven lies regardless of how much time Obama spent in Indonesia.

AS A SIDE NOTE: Spending a year or two or four years does NOT justify saing, "Obama grew up in Indonesia" with no mention of the US. I don't care which four year span it is, since Obama spent 14 of his first 18 years in the US failing to mention it is a deception.

Originally posted by FMF
No twisting. No ten years ago. You were spreading the Death Panels propaganda here in this online community only last year in 2010 while the issue was still being debated. Now it suits you to distance yourself from the deceitful sensationalism, but you do so without any grace or honesty. Your M.O., in a nutshell.

Whodey's contributions to the debate on Death Panels only had the purpose of presenting alternative viewpoints to the prevailing liberal dogma of RHP, Whodey was simply giving expression to views which had been relegated to the margins of the political discourse.

There is little to suggest the links he posted actually reflected his own personal view of the conspiracies and tales of death panels, and we know this because had it been otherwise whodey wouldn't have started this thread deriding the outlandish rhetoric of both Democrats and Republicans.

on the other hand you could be right, maybe whodey is just a duplicitous, "lying partisan worm" (as he had once been pigeonholed), but what are the chances of that being true? 😉

Originally posted by FMF
Really? Wow. All that controversy over Obama's birth and youth and citizenship - all of which USAP fielded so well, week in week out here, for months and months - and he suddenly forgot it all when 'Smite a GOP candidate' became the topic?

You think the ages of 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and a 10 are a "short time" in the "growing up" that kids do? Do you think tha ime an honest mistake, even after his error had been pointed out to him?

LOL.

"All that controversy over Obama's birth and youth and citizenship - all of which USAP fielded so well, week in week out here, for months and months - and he suddenly forgot it all when"

Yes, not knowing the exact amount of time Obama spent in Indonesia constitutes forgetting it ALL.

"You think the ages of 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and a 10 are a "short time" in the "growing up" that kids do?"

A short time in itself, no. But short enough that when Obama lived in the US from the age of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 at least deserves a mention.

"Obama grew up in Indonesia" with no mention of the US is implying he spent all or most of his childhood there.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
The snipe is that Huckabee said Obama grew up in KENYA (flatout false), and then later LIED by saying he "meant" to say Indonesia.

Both of those are 100% proven lies regardless of how much time Obama spent in Indonesia.

Huckabee told a lie. Or two. A Dog bit a man. Twice, perhaps. There is no dispute over these things. The issue has become: why did you understate how many years Obama spent growing up in Indonesia when you surely must have known the true amount? And why do you still downplay the significance of the 'age 6 to 10' phase even now that your error - indeed, your preemptively predicted "mistake" - has been pointed out to you? Is it still simply a function of your dislike for Huckabee?

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Yes, not knowing the exact amount of time Obama spent in Indonesia constitutes forgetting it ALL.

I'm not saying you forgot it all. I am saying you appeared to have forgotten ALL about his youth, several years of which were spent growing up in Indonesia - not a short time by any stretch of the child-developmental imagination. Do you still contend that it was a "short time" in terms of his "growing up"?

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
"Obama grew up in Indonesia" with no mention of the US is implying he spent all or most of his childhood there.

Nobody disputes that Huckabee lied. I'll say it again: nobody disputes that Huckabee lied. But why have you continued to downplay the significance - in terms of "growing up" - of Obama living in Indonesia when he was a kid for 2, 3 or 4 times longer than you stated? Is it because you're really angry about Huckabee?