Fate vs. free will

Originally posted by KellyJay
Our paths may be more complicated, yet the old rule is still the same. If you do not change your ways you will go where you’re headed. This is true with or without fate as part of the discussion is it not? I used the word path when talking about life, because it seems closer to the way of things. With religion and God thrown in the mix, we have things like ...[text shortened]... e I’m going to be heading where I choose to go are not both fate and free will coming into play?

9 questions? I only have so many tentacles you know...

I'm not sure where to start untangling the knot you just wove...

Do you feel "bound to external things"?

MÅ¥HÅRM

Originally posted by Mayharm
9 questions? I only have so many tentacles you know...

I'm not sure where to start untangling the knot you just wove...

Do you feel "bound to external things"?

MÅ¥HÅRM

I believe we are heavily influenced by the external, and in some cases the word bound fits rather nicely. Being free, in a world that would put you in a box to behave this way or that would make you unique don't you think?

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
So which is it? Are we predestined to do what we do? Are our lives planned for us by some higher power? Or, do we create our own destiny?

The question is not a good one I'm afraid.

Not being able to create our own destiny does not automatically involve a higher power who has pre-determined our life and what we should do.

I do not think there is a higher power, so there is no plan.
We do not create our own destiny, for we are products of our enviroment and our histories force us to do actions.

Say you decide you are going to a city. You can claim to be in control.
But:
Why are you going to that city?
How are you going to get there?

These questions will probably result in a reason and a method. Did you create these reasons and methods? Or where they just there?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe we are heavily influenced by the external, and in some cases the word bound fits rather nicely. Being free, in a world that would put you in a box to behave this way or that would make you unique don't you think?

In what way does the world try and put you in a box?

MÅ¥HÅRM

Originally posted by Mayharm
In what way does the world try and put you in a box?

MÅ¥HÅRM

When it tries to center attention on pleasing self...it's all about the good life, than it defines the good life, eating, drinking, and being merry, own this, power, money, having influence in this world...it's all about X you name it. It takes away from life by trying to define it in such petty ways.

Originally posted by KellyJay
When it tries to center attention on pleasing self...it's all about the good life, than it defines the good life, eating, drinking, and being merry, own this, power, money, having influence in this world...it's all about X you name it. It takes away from life by trying to define it in such petty ways.

Ok...so how does the world define the "good life"?

MÅ¥HÅRM

Originally posted by Mayharm
Ok...so how does the world define the "good life"?

MÅ¥HÅRM

You did read my post? I defined it above.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You did read my post? I defined it above.

Yeeees...I read your post...

You defined the end result, you didn't define HOW you got there. As in "the world defines looking good as one of the ways it puts you into a box" but not "it defines what is good looking by method x, y and z".

I probably could have been clearer about that though, my apologies.

MÅ¥HÅRM

Originally posted by Mayharm
Yeeees...I read your post...

You defined the end result, you didn't define HOW you got there. As in "the world defines looking good as one of the ways it puts you into a box" but not "it defines what is good looking by method x, y an ...[text shortened]... ould have been clearer about that though, my apologies.

MÅ¥HÅRM

No apologies required, if that is the worst that happens in misunderstanding points we will be in great shape. How it is done is wide and varied, it comes through by attaching more worth to the strong and beautiful, thereby diminishing everything else. Self-worth and importance are thought of things that are required to be achieved or attained, verses simply knowing that our lives are important and meaningful just as they are. Appeals to our desires, the defining of what is important touch us is so many ways, to single one out I’d say look at marketing strategies.

For why I believe this is wrong I am going to use a scriptural example, hope you don’t mind.

James 2
1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Our wealth, power, and influence do not define our worth, and yet we make judgements as if they do. The world we live in bombard us with messages that define the rich and powerful as something more than the weak and helpless. From the ideology that we can glean from evolutionary teaching that stronger, faster, anything with an advantage is better, worth if defined that way as well. From a Christian perspective, when Jesus talks about what is done to the least of his, is like doing it unto him, we should see that there are no little people in the grand scheme of things.

We can be bound by the need to require ‘X’ to feel normal or equal to others. From the teenager in high school that requires a boyfriend/girlfriend to have self-worth, to the drug addict (cigarettes, alcohol, illegal drugs and so on.) We can be bound to the need for pleasure, to the point that others are required to be degraded so we can achieve it for an ever so brief time. Our lusts can become like fire in the since that they are never satisfied they are always needing more and more.

Contentment and satisfaction are almost thought of as a weakness in a world that is always striving and never achieving what it is looking for is the norm.

Well, I hope I did not talk past the point you were looking for. If I did then I will try again to answer your questions if you want.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No apologies required, if that is the worst that happens in misunderstanding points we will be in great shape. How it is done is wide and varied, it comes through by attaching more worth to the strong and beautiful, thereby diminishing everything else. Self-worth and importance are thought of things that are required to be achieved or attained, verses simpl ...[text shortened]... point you were looking for. If I did then I will try again to answer your questions if you want.

"Well, I hope I did not talk past the point you were looking for"

Well you did, but I think I got what I needed.


"How it is done is wide and varied, it comes through by attaching more worth to the strong and beautiful, thereby diminishing everything else."

So from the very inception of your reasoning we see a choice is available. The choice is whether to accept those values or not. If you have blindly accepted the values given to you by others then that is simply self-enslavement, that you did not choose to question them then does not free you from the responsibility of having chosen them.

Take murder, say someone standing trial was raised in an environment where the value of life was cheap and killing someone was a mark of status. Would we accept that they had no choice? No. Would we concede that their responsibility was diminished? Perhaps. Would we let them off scot free? No.


But let's take it back to what you were originally saying.

"How is free will defined? People bound to external things like drugs can we call them free? People bound by the need to be liked, the fear of others, the need for control, and so on can we call them free?"

So, now that I understand your reasoning I would have to say that if you consider anything the "external world" tells you to be binding in some way or another, then it is a signal that there is some value you have blindly accepted that deep down inside you know is questionable (for you at least).

This doesn't mean the value isn't right, or at least, "true/false" for you. However it implies that either there is some flaw in your understanding of the value OR that it is the "external world" that has a flawed understanding of the value.

Not probing those questions further is sheer, unadulterated cowardice...but that's everyone's own choice to make, isn't it?

MÅ¥HÅRM

Originally posted by Mayharm
[b]"Well, I hope I did not talk past the point you were looking for"

Well you did, but I think I got what I needed.


"How it is done is wide and varied, it comes through by attaching more worth to the strong and ...[text shortened]... .but that's everyone's own choice to make, isn't it?

MÅ¥HÅRM[/b]

The point of being bound and free, being bound ties us to something
we need or require. Value judgements are there and always will be,
yet those things go to the core of our being. Standards that say all life
is important will shape the core of our being, just as a standard that
says, those lives that have the label "X" on them are not as important
or not important will also shape the core of each life.

Choices are available, yet simply being in a culture takes away from
any choice of what external forces will be applied to one's life, every
life will simply get those external forces each culture provides.

As far as being able to question values, values are simply a part of the
issue. What I'm talking about is how our lives are affected by what we
believe to be true or what we choose to value.

We can be bound by fear of other opinions, we can be bound by fear
of some loss, we can be bound by notions that the only way we can
be happy or normal is "X." Being free doesn't in my opinion mean that
we do not consider others, nor am I saying that being free is not being
responsible either. If we were to say we can be bound by love, those
types of chains I'd where gladly and would consider them “freeing
chains” instead of those that binds us and causes us to be bound.
While at the same time if we were to look at chains of fear, hate,
selfishness and other such things cripple lives.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The point of being bound and free, being bound ties us to something
we need or require. Value judgements are there and always will be,
yet those things go to the core of our being. Standards that say all life
is important will shape the core of our being, just as a standard that
says, those lives that have the label "X" on them are not as important
o ...[text shortened]... if we were to look at chains of fear, hate,
selfishness and other such things cripple lives.

Drugs, vices, etc. are all "bad" because we dont need them.

The "need" for them is therefore a "value judgement".

It doesn't matter what the "external forces" are telling you, because everybody is born knowing what it is they really "need", sustenance & shelter. Anything else is a value judgement and as such is implicitely subject to individual choice.

Even love is subject to this and can be just as cripppling as hate when we make bad value judgements.

MÅ¥HÅRM

Originally posted by Mayharm
If you think about it practically yes. You walk down a road of course the end of the road is predetermined.

Life's journey is a little bit more complicated, though the answer is the same. Any one road you choose to travel will have a predetermined destination, but we dont typically choose one road nor do we tend to stay on it.

For example I've ...[text shortened]... thus free will and fate are not exclusive concepts, but in fact co-existent concepts.

MÅ¥HÅRM

Couldn't you also be a car mechanic/hair dresser?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I would wonder why God chooses to say He was going to judge us, if he made all of our choices for us. I would disagree with that position. I would say that the paths of life are before us, we pick the where’s and how’s we are going to live, that takes us where we are going. Either we are moving with God or continually away from Him.

Kelly, have you thought about seeing a doctor about having that coffeee cup removed from your face?
It must make it hard to drive 😀

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
Couldn't you also be a car mechanic/hair dresser?

I'd rather be a baker 😉

MÅ¥HÅRM