Originally posted by Brother EdwinYa we have heard of nature selection.We have also heard of human selection survival of the least useful.Any animal which poses an use to the human is hunted to extinction for its precious hide or tusks or other things.How many times have you read the description "this species used to exist... so and so ..and was extinct due to human hunting for its valuable ......... .
For christ sake its a tradition and fun!!!!!!!!!!!! Do any of you actually know anyone who does it?
Since when has anyone cared about a fox? What next? A ban on fishing?
Has anyone heard of natural selection?
Do you realize if we didn't kill foxes we would be up to our waists in these vile creatures? We would have to shovel them off the pavement to take a walk in the morning. They would throw themselves into prams and smother babies, get themselves stuck in automovile exhausts, attack old ladies at bus stops. There would be no end to their mischief. Besides fox hunting offers the upper class the opportunity to wear costumes and amusing hats and trample those infernal anglo-saxons who loiter about the countryside procreating and...sory, i seem to have gone off on a tangent. Never mind.
Originally posted by SiskinSo we should allow hunting in central London? I kind of like that idea 🙂
nearly all the foxes in the uk live as scavangers in the suburbs of cities living on food from refuse bins, I've seen some in broad daylight in central London streets, (and foxes are noctural animals)
Certainly make the view from my office window more interesting.
(can we add tourists to the list of things that are huntable in central london, as well as all slow moving people between Picadilly and Heathrow...)
Because of the furore that has been created by the "invasion" of the House of Commons, the actual debate about fox-huinting has been overlooked. Arguments being made about being overrun by foxes is irrelevant. Fox-hunting is still legal, but fox-hunting with dogs is now illegal (or will be in July 2006).
What people were objecting to was not the actual killing of the fox, but the systematic hunting down of the fox, blocking any possible escape routes it may have and (in some cases) allowing the dogs to kill it. Farmers can still shoot foxes that are a threat to their livelihood, they just can't make it a sport.
I also have little time for anyone who argues that it is breaking a tradition, or that fox-hunting is a way of life. Enslaving Africans and making them work on plantations in the Carribean was a way of life and a tradition. It does not mean that it was right though.
Mark
Plus, any toffs complaining about police brutality at Westminster: well, now you know how the fox felt everytime....
Originally posted by mmanuelWell the fox has a quick death.
Because of the furore that has been created by the "invasion" of the House of Commons, the actual debate about fox-huinting has been overlooked. Arguments being made about being overrun by foxes is irrelevant. Fox-hunting is still legal, but fox-hunting with dogs is now illegal (or will be in July 2006).
What people were objecting to was not the actual ...[text shortened]... laining about police brutality at Westminster: well, now you know how the fox felt everytime....
May I congratulate Brother Edwin on achieving his hat-trick of posts in this thread without making a single intelligent point.
For christ sake its a tradition and fun!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many things have been traditional at one time or another in Britain: killing Africans, killing Indians, killing Catholics, killing Protestants, etc. Doesn't make them right. Similarly with fun, many like to rape, murder but we would rather they didn't.
Do any of you actually know anyone who does it?
I don't know any murderers or child abusers but I still think I can safely say this kind of behaviour is wrong.
Since when has anyone cared about a fox?
The bill went through Parliament with a majority of 2 to 1. MORI puts the national support for the ban at about 70%.
What next? A ban on fishing?
I doubt there will be any more animal welfare legislation for a while now, but that would be nice!
Has anyone heard of natural selection?
If you think that 'natural law' is a good way to decide how to behave then I hope you won't mind if I kill someone so I can have their girlfriend, after all violent sexual competition is part of 'survival of the fittest'.
Foxes arnt humans therefore we can kill them
It was once quite common practise to kill those with other religious views, but that didn't mean it was a good thing.
they wouldant care about us
I don't care about you, but I don't think that gives me the right to kill you.
They wont be extinct by fox hunting, it has gone on for years and they are still here.
Correct, but the law is about animal welfare and not preventing the fox from extinction.
Why dont these anti-fox hunting protesters go and protest about something else like poverty.
Many campaign about both. You imply that this is not a valid cause, whereas the level of public support says it is.
Well the fox has a quick death.
Not really, hunted foxes tend to be ripped to pieces by the hounds while still alive.
Originally posted by garethnto try to argue the pro hunt side, because no one else is (and forgive me, I haven't studied their real argument at all):
May I congratulate Brother Edwin on achieving his hat-trick of posts in this thread without making a single intelligent point.
[b]For christ sake its a tradition and fun!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many things have been traditional at one time or another in Britain: killing Africans, killing Indians, killing Catholics, killing Protestants, etc. Doesn't make them ...[text shortened]... eath.[/b]
Not really, hunted foxes tend to be ripped to pieces by the hounds while still alive.[/b]
I'd firstly point out that most of your examples as to why fox hunting is bad refer to crimes against people (rape, child molestation...). This isn't necessarily valid as we are not talking about people, we are talking about animals that most of the world quite happily eats.
A lot of people protest the hunt when they don't know anything about it. Much of the hunt isn't riding after the fox, it's the ceremony before & after, and riding looking for a fox. Yes, if oyu take the fox out of the equation it all falls down but it's not just about killing.
The fox does die quickly; being torn apart does that for you. The complaint is more that the hounds are trained to run slowly, so that the fox isn't so much caught but rather run to exhaustion. This takes time and can't be pleasent, but 'persistance' hunting is one of the oldest methods of hunting known to man, and is still practiced in some parts of Africa to catch big game (those guys run on foot to catch wilderbeast, following them until they fall!). It's not done to be cruel, it's done because it works.
Foxes have been hunted because they are great theaves and scavengers. Any increase in agriculture will increase the ofx popluation because it will support it so their numbers must be controlled. The foxes are going to die anyway - how else should they be killed? Poison is too indiscriminate and would other animals such as badgers as well. The same goes for traps, and noether are quick or painless. Shooting isn't usually a quick death as the farmer doesn't get close enough for a clean kill with a shotgun, leaving the fox to bleed to death slowly in pain. Any other ideas? And any othe rmethod has no benefit apart from killing the fox - at least the hunt was fun (for some) as well.
That's all I can come up with for now...
Originally posted by belgianfreakI can think of more arguments:
to try to argue the pro hunt side, because no one else is (and forgive me, I haven't studied their real argument at all):
I'd firstly point out that most of your examples as to why fox hunting is bad refer to crimes against people (rape, child molestation...). This isn't necessarily valid as we are not talking about people, we are talking about a ...[text shortened]... fox - at least the hunt was fun (for some) as well.
That's all I can come up with for now...
Why just ban one sort of "cruel" sport? Why not others like sport fishing, Haggis throwing and big brother?
Originally posted by belgianfreakExactly.
to try to argue the pro hunt side, because no one else is (and forgive me, I haven't studied their real argument at all):
I'd firstly point out that most of your examples as to why fox hunting is bad refer to crimes against peopl ...[text shortened]... n (for some) as well.
That's all I can come up with for now...
Originally posted by garethnFor christ sake its a tradition and fun!!!!!!!!!!!!
May I congratulate Brother Edwin on achieving his hat-trick of posts in this thread without making a single intelligent point.
[b]For christ sake its a tradition and fun!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many things have been traditional at one time or another in Britain: killing Africans, killing Indians, killing Catholics, killing Protestants, etc. Doesn't make them ...[text shortened]... eath.[/b]
Not really, hunted foxes tend to be ripped to pieces by the hounds while still alive.[/b]
"Many things have been traditional at one time or another in Britain: killing Africans, killing Indians, killing Catholics, killing Protestants, etc. Doesn't make them right. Similarly with fun, many like to rape, murder but we would rather they didn't."
Foxes are not humans.
Do any of you actually know anyone who does it?
"I don't know any murderers or child abusers but I still think I can safely say this kind of behaviour is wrong."
So what? This is comparing foxes to people.
Since when has anyone cared about a fox?
"The bill went through Parliament with a majority of 2 to 1. MORI puts the national support for the ban at about 70%".
So what? Many people use cars but it still polutes the air.
What next? A ban on fishing?
"I doubt there will be any more animal welfare legislation for a while now, but that would be nice!"
Are you a vegetarian?
Has anyone heard of natural selection?
"If you think that 'natural law' is a good way to decide how to behave then I hope you won't mind if I kill someone so I can have their girlfriend, after all violent sexual competition is part of 'survival of the fittest'."
Thats nothing to do with it. The best foxes siurvive.
Foxes arnt humans therefore we can kill them
"It was once quite common practise to kill those with other religious views, but that didn't mean it was a good thing."
Again that means nothing. A fox isant a person.
they wouldant care about us
"I don't care about you, but I don't think that gives me the right to kill you."
What kind of right? Legaly you have none but otherwise you can.
They wont be extinct by fox hunting, it has gone on for years and they are still here.
"Correct, but the law is about animal welfare and not preventing the fox from extinction."
Well in that case it can make us all vegetarian.
Why dont these anti-fox hunting protesters go and protest about something else like poverty.
"Many campaign about both. You imply that this is not a valid cause, whereas the level of public support says it is."
Level of public idiots who care to much about the "cute little fox".
Well the fox has a quick death.
"Not really, hunted foxes tend to be ripped to pieces by the hounds while still alive".
Which is quick, plus most hounds are trained to go for the throat.
I can't see shooting anything you can't eat.
If you can eat a fox then... ok.
There are no more than two billion of you hungry enough to do it.
Is my guess.
So to those who are hungry... buy a horse and enjoy. The rest of you will gain no support. I love foxes in my wyoming too much. But they are wild. Not raised as a crop.
If you raise a crop of foxes... good on you. More power to you.