France rejects EU constitution

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
I withdraw and appologise Mr Speaker..
I misread the article 'Non' unlikely to halt economic reform
Analysis By Jorn Madslien BBC News business reporter.

The decimalisation comment was spawned from rellies in UK who said many shops were reverting to imperial weights and measures...pints in the pubs etc. I was surprised Britain still had MPH on ...[text shortened]... limits and dash boards.. when I left in 1974 they had the new Euro signs everywhere.

Dan

We've never had anything but pints in pubs.
We've recently switched from imperial spirit measures (gills) to milligrams.
Shops now use metric measures.
Speed signs are still in miles per hour.
The BCF (which only covers England and Wales (?) anyway) still uses their own measure of chess ability, while the rest of the world uses elo numbers

Originally posted by Varg
Actually, not very long at all.
Each of the individual countries have constitutions of course (except the UK), but the EU constitution is quite a new proposal.

that's true..talk about uniting Europe has gone on for at least the last 20 or so years that I'm aware of, although this is the first serious effort....the creation of the Euro was probably the first actual step in "uniting" Europe.... ...and that only happened within the last, what, 5 years or so? How long has the Euro been around?

I still don't think it's gonna work... too many countries with their own self interests... a history of almost constant warfare over the past several hundred years... France... too many things working against it...

btw, you all HAVE to check this out...the link is good as I write this, I don't know how long it will be working... below is a link as to how different areas of France voted on the constitution, shown in a "red" (no) and "blue" (yes) fashion...looks a lot like the county-by-county map of the US in the last two Presidential Elections... almost solid red, except for a little bit along the East and West borders...



http://powerlineblog.com/archives/h_3_ill_655536_oui_non_referendum-thumb.jpg

France's voting no was purely for economic reasons. Another reason why Europe will never be "united".

Originally posted by TheBloop
that's true..talk about uniting Europe has gone on for at least the last 20 or so years that I'm aware of, although this is the first serious effort....the creation of the Euro was probably the first actual step in "uniting" Europe.... ...and that only happened within the last, what, 5 years or so? How long has the Euro been around?

I still don't t ...[text shortened]... ting no was purely for economic reasons. Another reason why Europe will never be "united".

The EEC started out life about, what?, 40-50 years ago, but this was never about uniting Europe, just making trade easier (and providing reasons not to war). When Britain joined in 1972 (?) it was not about uniting, but about trade. I think the Maastricht treaty in 198x (?) was about uniting.
But the thing is, some people want it united, some don't.

About too many countries and self interest - this is true, but is surely the same as the US. Not all of the states were happy about being part of the union, and there was some war and conflict in order to get them united, wasn't there?

Originally posted by Varg
The EEC started out life about, what?, 40-50 years ago, but this was never about uniting Europe, just making trade easier (and providing reasons not to war). When Britain joined in 1972 (?) it was not about uniting, but about trade. I think the Maastricht treaty in 198x (?) was about uniting.
But the thing is, some people want it united, some don't.

About ...[text shortened]... rt of the union, and there was some war and conflict in order to get them united, wasn't there?

The French want to maintain the structure that they have with their six weeks a year vacation and their four day work week and all the other benefits that they have, like very high unemployment payments and insurance, and a very high unemployment rate. If you can bring in competitors that want to work harder and will take less money to get jobs, then you've threatened the basic structure of the French lifestyle, and the French people didn't want any part of it. (i.e. The French don't want no Polish plumbers coming into their country).


And yes, you have a point...different states in the US do have varying self-interests... however, the US, when threatened, is still capable of uniting to defeat an enemy, regardless of who that enemy is... and Europe will never be that way... that's what I meant by "united"... The Federal Government's job is to protect the people of the United States... regardless of what state they live in... Europe will cetainly never have anything like that...

And yes, the United States did have a "Civil" War (that is kind of a strange name for a war), as do most countries throughout the world...but that ended 140 years ago... and we haven't had one since, at least not on an actual battlefied... Countries in Africa, Asia and Europe seem to have one civil war after another...or maybe it's just one war, that never ends...



I didn't really mean that European countries can't trade with each other, or that this Union will not make trade easier... but they did state, about 5 years ago, that their economy will be bigger than the US economy within 10 years... and all they've been doing in the last five years has been losing ground, not gaining... anybody out there taking bets on whether they'll make it?

Originally posted by TheBloop
And yes, the United States did have a "Civil" War (that is kind of a strange name for a war), as do most countries throughout the world...but that ended 140 years ago... and we haven't had one since, at least not on an actual battlefied... Countries in Africa, Asia and Europe seem to have one civil war after another...or maybe it's just one war, that never ends...

Yes, but the US has been united for, what, 150 years? And all the conflict was way back then, but it happened and the transition to union wasn't smooth.
The EU union, if it ever happens fully, is happening now and will no doubt not be smooth but hopefully will not involve a civil war.

Originally posted by TheBloop
Countries in Africa, Asia and Europe seem to have one civil war after another...or maybe it's just one war, that never ends...

Huh? Where did you get the impression that Europe is a war-torn subcontinent, in this day and age? With the exception of the former Yugoslavia and the Caucasus, I can't think of any wars taking place in Europe in the last 50 years.

Whatever the Eurosceptics say, the proposed EU constitution is not a path to federation, nor is it the first step in 'uniting Europe' - that came with the first Treaty of Rome in 1957. In fact, you could argue that the previous three treaties, Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice, were each more important than the constitution. It seems that it's the word 'constitution' that's got people agitated, rather than anything in it.

In any case, the proposed constution emphasises the supranational (as opposed to federal) nature of Europe:
- The EU derives power solely from the member states.
- The EU has authority only over a limited number of areas, where member states have agreed to pool their sovereignty, eg trade.


It may be in future there's a entity covering most of Europe which could be described as a single state, and where people self-identify as 'Europeans' more than any national identity. It may be that in years to come we'll be at each others' throats again. No-one knows how the European project is going to turn out, because we're in uncharted waters; nothing like this has ever been done before. But it's clear that in many ways the Europe of today is one which would have been unrecognisable 50 years ago (or even 15 years ago in Eastern Europe), and there's no reason to suppose Europe won't be as different again in 50 years' time.

Originally posted by TheBloop
don't know how long it will be working... below is a link as to how different areas of France voted on the constitution, shown in a "red" (no) and "blue" (yes) fashion...looks a lot like the county-by-county map of the US in the last ...[text shortened]... d red, except for a little bit along the East and West borders...

Well, then it's a good thing that people vote in elections and not blades of grass.