Is Russia starting to lose the war?

@metal-brain said
Kyiv's stance of joining the European Union (EU) and NATO was enshrined in the Ukrainian Constitution by a majority vote in the federal parliament in February 2019

That was AFTER Russia invaded and annexed Crimea.

@vivify said
Which is why they're allowing Finland to join, knowing that putting NATO on their border angers Russia?

Your arguments are inconsistent.

No, apples are apples and oranges are oranges.

@vivify said
That was AFTER Russia invaded and annexed Crimea.

2014 was definitely a historical turning point for Russia-Ukraine relations, but it was 5 years later that the Zelensky led amateurs in the Rada decided to take such a provocative step. They added to that with a series of discriminatory measures which violated the human and political rights of the Ukraine's large ethnic population (which the West applauded).

@no1marauder said
apples and oranges

Finland and Ukraine are both nations that broke away from Russian control who've since been invaded by Russia and had land annexed, who both want to join NATO and would be a strategic military threat due to bordering Russia.

What are the "apples and oranges" that makes NATO reject Ukrainian membership due to (allegedly) not wanting to anger Russia for two decades while immediately accepting Finland?

@vivify said
Finland and Ukraine are both nations that broke away from Russian control who've since been invaded by Russia and had land annexed, who both want to join NATO and would be a strategic military threat due to bordering Russia.

What are the "apples and oranges" that makes NATO reject Ukrainian membership due to (allegedly) not wanting to anger Russia for two decades while immediately accepting Finland?

Finland "broke away" over a 100 years ago.

Do I really have to give basic history lessons?

Russia and the Ukraine's ties are far more extensive and based on history and ethnicity to a degree that it is absurd to compare the same between Russia and Finland. Surely you can't be so uneducated as to not know this.

@no1marauder said
Finland "broke away" over a 100 years ago.

Do I really have to give basic history lessons?

Russia and the Ukraine's ties are far more extensive and based on history and ethnicity to a degree that it is absurd to compare the same between Russia and Finland. Surely you can't be so uneducated as to not know this.

That is a red herring.

You claimed NATO denied Ukraine membership to avoid Russia being angry that NATO was at their border. This makes no sense in light of Finland. If you're claiming Finland doesn't count because they lack "ties" like ethnicity, what about the Baltic states: former Soviet states who also border Russia and have ethnic Russians, just like Ukraine? Why wasn't NATO too afraid to grant them membership? Or are their "ties" not close enough for you either?

Your claim that NATO denied Ukraine membership because they feared Russia is refuted by history. The simple truth is that Ukraine never met NATO requirements and Putin is merely scapegoating NATO to justify invation.

@vivify said
That is a red herring.

You claimed NATO denied Ukraine membership to avoid Russia being angry that NATO was at their border. This makes no sense in light of Finland. If you're claiming Finland doesn't count because they lack "ties" like ethnicity, what about the Baltic states: former Soviet states who also border Russia and have ethnic Russians, just like Ukraine? Why wa ...[text shortened]... that Ukraine never met NATO requirements and Putin is merely scapegoating NATO to justify invation.

Jesus. I thought stubborn and ignorant were the province of right wingers here but this line of posting by you certainly deserves a honorable mention next to the Motts, AJs and others on this board.

I suggest you do some actual reading on the subject by historians who specialize in Eastern Europe. If you can find any who support your absurd thesis, I'd be stunned. None are going to say that Russian leaders and the Russian People regard Finland and the Baltic States as strategically important as the Ukraine. You're a damn fool if you think otherwise which I doubt; I suspect you are merely doubling and tripling down on a position you know is ridiculous.

@no1marauder said
None are going to say that Russian leaders and the Russian People regard Finland and the Baltic States as strategically important as the Ukraine.

Now you're using strawmen. No one said Finland or the Baltics were "as strategically important" as Ukraine. It's an act of cowardice to twist my words just so you can run away because you can't counter a point.

History refutes your claim that NATO was too afraid to anger Russia by turning its neighboring states, including former Soviet ones, into members. That's not debatable.

Your use of "the Ukraine" is contemptable. It explains why you can't accept facts and go to such lengths to legitimize Putin's scapegoating of NATO:

https://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/

Ukraine, Not "the" Ukraine: The Significance of Three Little Letters

The Ukraine is the way the Russians referred to that part of the country during Soviet times … Now that it is a country, a nation, and a recognized state, it is just Ukraine. And it is incorrect to refer to the Ukraine

GFY you Russian tool.

@no1marauder said
We've been all through this but you keep pedaling the same misinformation.

And you keep peddling the same Putinist agitprop, but at least vivify doesn't argue on the side of the mass murderers and rapists, unlike you.

@vivify said
Now you're using strawmen. No one said Finland or the Baltics were "as strategically important" as Ukraine. It's an act of cowardice to twist my words just so you can run away because you can't counter a point.

History refutes your claim that NATO was too afraid to anger Russia by turning its neighboring states, including former Soviet ones, into members. That's not deb ...[text shortened]... t is just Ukraine. And it is incorrect to refer to the Ukraine[/quote]
GFY you Russian tool.

Funny, someone else screamed when I just used "Ukraine".

Basically you idiots want to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you based on such trivia. Few "Russian tools" have referred to the invasion as "unjustified" and "a Crime Against Peace" as I have.

@shallow-blue said
And you keep peddling the same Putinist agitprop, but at least vivify doesn't argue on the side of the mass murderers and rapists, unlike you.

No matter how many times you repeat such lies they remain falsehoods.

@no1marauder said
Funny, someone else screamed when I just used "Ukraine".

Basically you idiots want to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you based on such trivia. Few "Russian tools" have referred to the invasion as "unjustified" and "a Crime Against Peace" as I have.

You deliberately water-down Russia's takeover of Ukraine as an "occupation", you constantly attack the Ukrainian government and now insist on an article used by Russians to describe Ukraine during Soviet times. Like a Russian tool.

You don't merely criticize NATO, you call for its complete dissolution. Like A Russian tool.

You accuse me of being a "right-winger" when your pro-Kremlin vitriol is the same as posters like Metal Brain or politicians like Viktor Orban.

The most ubiquitous trait right-wingers have in common is responding to facts that refute them with emotional outbursts. Baltic states refute your claim that NATO is too afraid let former Soviet states bordering Russia become members; so you respond like Trump, Mott and Metal Brain, using personal attacks rather than addressing the facts.

Your behavior with Russia is the same as Duchess with China.

@no1marauder said
Funny, someone else screamed when I just used "Ukraine".

Basically you idiots want to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you based on such trivia.

I used Time as my source. They're "idiots" too?

What about the BBC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

"The Ukraine" is incorrect both grammatically and politically

The BBC is a bunch of idiots too, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/10/01/its-ukraine-not-ukraine-ukrainians-want-you-get-it-right/

It's 'Ukraine', not 'the Ukraine'

The Washington Post and everyone else are just "idiots" but not you, right? Based on how you attack anyone who criticizes Russia, your use of "the" (which was used by Russians to denote Ukraine as part of the USSR) seems deliberate. You know...like a Russian tool.

@no1marauder said
Funny, someone else screamed when I just used "Ukraine".

No, tovarich. You used "The Ukraine".

@no1marauder said
Jesus. I thought stubborn and ignorant were the province of right wingers here but this line of posting by you certainly deserves a honorable mention next to the Motts, AJs and others on this board.

I suggest you do some actual reading on the subject by historians who specialize in Eastern Europe. If you can find any who support your absurd thesis, I'd be stunned. None ...[text shortened]... h I doubt; I suspect you are merely doubling and tripling down on a position you know is ridiculous.

When it comes to this issue YOU are the right winger along with MB or haven’t you noticed.
Just like him you’ll inflate any slight against Russia by Ukraine and the west and excuse any aggression murder and mayhem by Putin usually by blaming NATO.
Russia has no right any inch of Ukrainian land no matter how it’s apologist’s dress it up. Russia is just a nation like any other in Europe it has no emperial claims on its neighbours and no right whatsoever to tell them what alliances they can form and with whom. Isn’t the Russian Federation an alliance aren’t Russia allied with Belorussia to the determinant of their neighbours, not to mention there own oppressed citizens.