Originally posted by PalynkaOK, OK -- maybe you're willing to trade modern medicine, science, sanitation and convenience for a single-payer form of health care administered by a syphilis-addled dictator of a small banana republic, but I'm not. From the story in question:
Next time, try reading what you quote. You're a complete fool if you think this link proves your point.
"Hospitals in Cuba are often shabby and badly-lit, and lack equipment and medicines."
"The export of medical services has hurt Cuba's family doctor system and caused longer waits at health centers."
"Most foreigners pay, in what some critics call a "two-tiered system" where elite hospitals are reserved for the Communist leadership and celebrities such as Argentine soccer idol Diego Maradona."
"The hospitals dedicated to the health of regular citizens are a disaster," said Cordova, who was sent to work in Zimbabwe and defected in 2000. At these hospitals, Cubans bring personal items such as towels, bed sheets, soap and even food, he said.
"And while Cuba holds up its health care system as one of the achievements of the revolution launched by Cuban leader Fidel Castro in 1959, critics of the Cuban government say health care and other social benefits have come at a cost of political freedom in a one-party state."
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterSelective quoting.
OK, OK -- maybe you're willing to trade modern medicine, science, sanitation and convenience for a single-payer form of health care administered by a syphilis-addled dictator of a small banana republic, but I'm not. From the story in question:
"Hospitals in Cuba are often shabby and badly-lit, and lack equipment and medicines."
"The export ...[text shortened]... r social benefits have come at a cost of political freedom in a one-party state."
You said:
Hospitals in Cuba are often shabby and badly-lit, and lack equipment and medicines.
But you forgot what comes after: But the health system built by President Fidel Castro's government has produced results on a par with rich nations using the resources of a developing country.
Or left out things like:
Cuba is a model for other developing countries that cannot afford costly medical treatment and where preventing illness makes good economic sense
And many more. For anyone else just read the text and decide for yourselves. Don't let this fool trick you.
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Originally posted by Palynka[/b]If you're talking about the schwarzenneger riter (or whatever the hell he calls himself), don't worry. Nobody pays attention to him anyway.
Selective quoting.
You said:
Hospitals in Cuba are often shabby and badly-lit, and lack equipment and medicines.
But you forgot what comes after: [b]But the health system built by President Fidel Castro's government has produced results on a par with rich nations using the resources of a developing country.
Or left out things like:
C ...[text shortened]... . For anyone else just read the text and decide for yourselves. Don't let this fool trick you.
He's obviously a mouth piece for the Ayn Rand society of morons.
Originally posted by PalynkaHealth care in Cuba is what it is. Moreover, I don't have to make up, withhold or omit anything -- unlike Michael Moore.
Selective quoting.
You said:
Hospitals in Cuba are often shabby and badly-lit, and lack equipment and medicines.
But you forgot what comes after: [b]But the health system built by President Fidel Castro's government has produced results on a par with rich nations using the resources of a developing country.
Or left out things like:
C ...[text shortened]... . For anyone else just read the text and decide for yourselves. Don't let this fool trick you.
1 edit
Originally posted by shavixmirBetter that than where your mouth has been my debauched friend.
If you're talking about the schwarzenneger riter (or whatever the hell he calls himself), don't worry. Nobody pays attention to him anyway.
He's obviously a mouth piece for the Ayn Rand society of morons.[/b]
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterHere's a dare: Watch the movie. It is not what you prejudge it to be. Neither was Bowling nor 9-11 but I imagine you have already made up your mind. Again, I challange you to watch the movie.
Actually, it's not that I'm so "high and mighty and haughty" as you put it, but rather I made a decision years ago after watching Moore's ham-fisted effort at gun control(Bowling for Columbine) that I'd never put another dollar into his deep pockets again. Moore, like a lot of "sickos" in Hollywood, preaches socialism while wallowing in the aisle ...[text shortened]... I posted earlier if you want to find out more about what socialized medicine is like.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't know much about the health care system in Cuba. A Russian doctor I spoke to in Moscow about the former communist times said that the problem was doctors were paid the same no matter if they treated anyone or not. So naturally they did a certain minimal quota and made it appear impossible to do more -- unless there were "considerations".
Yet in Cuba they seem to have got it right - or is that Government run rather than government regulated?
In South Africa the government tried to push pharmacies to lower their prices on medicines because they felt the markups were unreasonable. I am not sure how successful that has been.
I was brought up in Zambia which had free (though very low sta ...[text shortened]... e but still fairly cheap and if you have the money there is the private option which costs more.
For a government to decide prices is nearly always a disaster. Just encourage competition and prices drop like magic.
Originally posted by spruce112358Bribery is a major problem in the Russian and Cuban health care systems.
I don't know much about the health care system in Cuba. A Russian doctor I spoke to in Moscow about the former communist times said that the problem was doctors were paid the same no matter if they treated anyone or not. So naturally they did a certain minimal quota and made it appear impossible to do more -- unless there were "considerations".
For a ...[text shortened]... de prices is nearly always a disaster. Just encourage competition and prices drop like magic.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe conventional wisdom is that Europe once-mighty drug industry was gutted by government's setting price controls for reimbursement. Returns dropped below investment and so companies worldwide turned to a US-first strategy for new chemical entitites. A drug has to make it in the US. After that, one moves on to Europe. Japan would be second but approvals are a nightmare. The rest of the world? There are such piddling returns, many compounds aren't even marketed there.
You could be right. But most of the world is doing quite well by letting the US and Europe do all the 'developing' and then producing 'generics' for a fraction of the price.
At the end of the day the question is: Does the average Cuban receive better health care than the average US citizen? Also you must take into account the size of the two economies and the fact that the US has put a lot of economic pressure on Cuba.
Which means the US consumer pays a lot of the cost of new drug development.
Originally posted by sonhouseHealth care is no different from any other industry. They provide a service to customers.
It goes deeper than that, the polititicians are simply bought out by the medical companies whose primary goal has nothing to do with the interest of the patient, the primary interest is to make money no matter who dies or gets hurt. It's that simple. We have to completely tear down the existing power structure and replace it with one actually interested in ...[text shortened]... y spent on simple bribes to senators and congressmen who play along. That is the real problem.
If the customers pay and there is lots of competition, customers rule and prices drop.
If there is limited competition (or lots of regulation) and third parties pay, then costs are high and no one pays any attention to customers.
Lots of countries have the latter scenario.
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Originally posted by zeeblebot
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_he_me/sicko_us_fact_check;_ylt=AtKJncP4MpKg3V3hNJ1cVYvMWM0F
"Moore's 'Sicko' gives accused little say
By KEVIN FREKING and LINDA A. JOHNSON, Associated Press Writers
Sun Jul 1, 1:52 AM ET
...
But one aspect missing from the film is the defense. Do not expect to hear anyone speak well of the care they received in the U.S. On the other hand, patients and doctors from Canada, Britain, France and Cuba marvel at their health care.
...
Moore also takes on the notion that universal health coverage leads to longer waits in hospital emergency rooms and to see doctors.
He visited a crowded emergency room in Canada and asked patients how long they had to wait. One said 20 minutes; a second said 45 minutes. "I got help right away," a third said.
Yet a recent report from the Commonwealth Fund indicates that wait times in the U.S. are clearly shorter than they are in Canada.
In all areas measured, the U.S. fared better than Canada. For example, 24 percent of Canadians waited four hours or longer to be seen in the emergency room versus 12 percent in the U.S. The difference was more acute when it came time to see a specialist. Fifty-seven percent of Canadians waited four weeks or longer to see a specialist versus 23 percent in the U.S.
The Commonwealth Fund also monitored wait times in Britain, which has universal health care. The wait times for emergency room care were comparable to those in the U.S.. There was a big difference when it came time to see a specialist — 60 percent in Britain waited four weeks or longer.
The film concludes with a trip to Cuba where Moore seeks care for a group of workers who have experienced health problems after responding to 2001 terrorist attacks. They are greeted with open arms at a hospital in Havana and given what appears to be top-notch care that they could not get in the U.S. The question left for viewers to ponder is whether Cubans are given such red carpet treatment, too. "
Originally posted by zeeblebotSo it's ok for the american government to diss those volunteers who badly need help? I don't hear anyone telling about how soldiers coming back from Iraq and suffering from any number of ailments from gunshot to mental problems, they are dissed just as bad as the volunteer workers. You people are friggin blind if you can't see the US health system as a corruption ridden system from the top down.
Thread 72027
Originally posted by zeeblebot
[b]guhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_he_me/sicko_us_fact_check;_ylt=AtKJncP4MpKg3V3hNJ1cVYvMWM0F
"Moore's 'Sicko' gives accused little say
By KEVIN FREKING and LINDA A. JOHNSON, Associated Press Writers
Sun Jul 1, 1:52 AM ET
...
But one aspect missing from the fil ...[text shortened]... t for viewers to ponder is whether Cubans are given such red carpet treatment, too. "[/b]
I didn't see you mention about the 'doctors' who make bonuses the size of which is tied to the number of people they can come up with some sick excuse to deny health care to. You think those people who died and left loved ones alone because they were denied the health care they desparetly needed were just paid actors?
Originally posted by spruce112358So, why is healthcare so high in the US?
Health care is no different from any other industry. They provide a service to customers.
If the customers pay and there is lots of competition, customers rule and prices drop.
If there is limited competition (or lots of regulation) and third parties pay, then costs are high and no one pays any attention to customers.
Lots of countries have the latter scenario.
Originally posted by sonhouseIt is unconscionable that any military person would be denied care, if anyone deserves it, they do
So it's ok for the american government to diss those volunteers who badly need help? I don't hear anyone telling about how soldiers coming back from Iraq and suffering from any number of ailments from gunshot to mental problems, they are dissed just as bad as the volunteer workers. You people are friggin blind if you can't see the US health system as a corr ...[text shortened]... one because they were denied the health care they desparetly needed were just paid actors?
Doctors who receive a bonus for denying care should have their license taken away and the insurance company who encourages this practice should be heavily fined and the instigators jailed. However this is not a common practice by insurance companies... very few if any are still capitated. Capitated managed care companies were big in the 90's... the idea was to hold the doctor more responsible for the health of the patient. However, it also ended up leading to decreased procedures/visits because that would eat into the doctors profits.
Problems that arise in any system should not mean that the whole thing is scraped... the problems should be used as a way to make the system stronger/better.
If I was an MD and nationalized healthcare becomes reality, I would quickly find procedures that were NOT covered and specialize in those.