15 Mar 12
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyThe Robert Gates copy paste is entirely off topic and, what's more, it is mostly entirely off topic with regard to the off topic things you have been spamming this thread with.
Apparently Robert Gates is as crazy as Whodey.
OK. Maybe you can be persuaded to tie your current hobby horses into the thread's topic.
(1) What influence do you think the size of U.S. military expenditure - including what it spends on NATO - should have on the military justice meted out to members of its forces who carry out massacres [like the ones in Kandahar and Haditha that have been mentioned in this thread]? How would this be affected by the US Congress no longer refusing to pay arrears to the U.N.?
(2) What influence do you think President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize should have on the justice meted out to members of U.S. military forces who carry such massacres? How would this be affected by President Obama giving the Nobel Peace Prize back?
15 Mar 12
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFAll I know is that the only soldiers in trouble are US soldiers. Apparently, all these other countries who share "equally" in NATO support seem to have no such issues.
The Robert Gates copy paste is entirely off topic and, what's more, it is mostly entirely off topic with regard to the off topic things you have been spamming this thread with.
OK. Maybe you can be persuaded to tie your current hobby horses into the thread's topic.
(1) What influence do you think the size of U.S. military expenditure - including what it s h massacres? How would this be affected by President Obama giving the Nobel Peace Prize back?
Go figure. Maybe we should ask them their secret.
15 Mar 12
Originally posted by whodeyWhat massacres - that were not carried out by U.S. troops or aircraft or drones, but by other NATO contingents, and that went unpunished - do you have in mind specifically?
All I know is that the only soldiers in trouble are US soldiers. Apparently, all these other countries who share "equally" in NATO support seem to have no such issues.
15 Mar 12
1 edit
Originally posted by sh76Panetta said on Monday the guy could get the death penalty.
In this case, the perpetrator is either insane, in which case he should be sent to a mental hospital for the criminally insane, or he's not, in which case he should be imprisoned for life.
http://news.yahoo.com/panetta-death-penalty-possible-afghan-shooting-233145339.html
15 Mar 12
Originally posted by moon1969Yes, I posted that earlier in this thread.
Panetta said on Monday the guy could get the death penalty.
http://news.yahoo.com/panetta-death-penalty-possible-afghan-shooting-233145339.html
This guy is obviously going either to prison or a mental hospital for a long time.
15 Mar 12
Originally posted by sh76I respectfully disagree, sh76. The massacre carried out by Frank Wuterich and his subordinates in Haditha was far worse than this latest one in Kandahar.
In carnage wrought, perhaps, but not in the intent of the perpetrators, circumstances or culpability.
Haditha saw deliberate killing, nobody claiming diminished reponsibility, or insanity, 24 dead, including children, many more wounded. It went on long enough for it to be 'meditated' if not premeditated, the U.S. military tried to cover it up, spin it, lie about it, those involved lied, leading to one part of the military hatching a deal with another part of the military, leading to acquittals, and the commander of the unit, Wuterich, got given a general discharge under honourable conditions, which amounts to a pat on the back [and a not-so-subtle signal to other military personnel] in the circumstances.
The "the intent of the perpetrators" in Haditha was to kill the men, women and children that they were firing at, from point blank range in many cases. The "culpability" of the perpetrator in Kandahar is moot if it turns out he was insane or temporarily insane.
I contend that the "extreme facts" (as Moon1969 coined it) of the Hathida massacre (and the military's disgraceful response) easily and obviously outweigh the calamity and gruesome tragedy of Kandahar.
15 Mar 12
Originally posted by FMFThat all may or may not be true. If it is then of course, it is a sad miscarriage of justice. However, the investigators who looked into the matter felt that there was insufficient evidence that this was the case.
I respectfully disagree, sh76. The massacre carried out by Frank Wuterich and his subordinates in Haditha was far worse than this latest one in Kandahar.
Haditha saw deliberate killing, nobody claiming diminished reponsibility, or insanity, 24 dead, including children, many more wounded. It went on long enough for it to be 'meditated' if not premeditated, the ...[text shortened]... response) easily and obviously outweigh the calamity and gruesome tragedy of Kandahar.
A deeper blow came in a report made public Tuesday by Lt. Col. Paul Ware, a career Marine prosecutor who strongly urged that all charges against Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt be dismissed.
Sharratt is one of three Marines accused of going on a rampage against the 24 Iraqis after a roadside bomb killed a fellow Marine on Nov. 19, 2005.
In his report, Ware labeled allegations against Sharratt “unsupported” and several times called them “incredible.”
He also suggested that some of the dead Iraqis were insurgents, as the defendants have maintained.
Ware, who presided over the pretrial hearing for Sharratt last month, said accounts by Iraqi witnesses seemed inconsistent with the forensic evidence available.
Such evidence showed that “each was shot facing forward, from a distance, and with a 9 mm pistol, which I find inconsistent with an execution or persons reacting to an execution,” Ware wrote.
He noted that relatives of the dead Iraqis refused to allow the U.S. military to exhume the bodies to conduct autopsies. He also said the Iraqis had a powerful motive to lie, given that the Marine Corps would sometimes pay $2,500 to the family of an Iraqi civilian killed by U.S. forces.
Giving credence to the statements of these Iraqi witnesses would set “a dangerous precedent that, in my opinion, may encourage others to bear false witness against Marines as a tactic to erode public support of the Marine Corps mission in Iraq,” Ware wrote. “Even more dangerous is the potential that a Marine may hesitate at the critical moment when facing the enemy.”
http://legacy.utsandiego.com/news/military/20070712-9999-1n12haditha.html
Now, of course it is true that Ware was an American marine and therefore had some incentive to whitewash the incident. That I will, of course, concede. But really, what more can be asked than that the incident be investigated thoroughly? If the investigation turns up a result that you don't like, you can either accept it anyway or allege that the investigation was a sham.
If the latter, I would submit that one investigation result is insufficient to prove that the US military investigation system of itself is a sham. Rather, I would look to see if there is a pattern. I gather that you will look to this case to see if, indeed, there is a pattern. If this case results in a stiff penalty (say, many years in prison or even a death penalty) for the perpetrator, would that cause you to look at the Haditha investigation in a new light?
15 Mar 12
Originally posted by sh76Is this long post a response to my contention that specifically the Haditha massacre was far worse than the one in Kandahar? If it is I don't really get it.
That all may or may not be true. If it is then of course, it is a sad miscarriage of justice. However, the investigators who looked into the matter felt that there was insufficient evidence that this was the case.
[quote]A deeper blow came in a report made public Tuesday by Lt. Col. Paul Ware, a career Marine prosecutor who strongly urged that all charges ag ...[text shortened]... for the perpetrator, would that cause you to look at the Haditha investigation in a new light?