11 Jun 04
Originally posted by ivanhoeFreedom is that state that is attained through effort in opposition to tyranny.
A debater wrote in some thread "It is a noble goal, balancing morality and freedom, ... "
It would be an interesting subject to discuss this "balancing" morality and freedom.
Is freedom and acting morally contradictory or what ?
Do morals and ethics limit our freedom ?
Are these two entities mutually excluding eachother or is acting morally an expression of the highest form of freedom ?
What are your thoughts ?
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Freedom is an ideal that is worth fighting and dying for.
Freedom is attainable only through the effort of heroic action, because the despot will always strive to wrest it from your breast.
Freedom is illusory. It exists only in the mind.
But only in the mind can action counter stupidity and cruelty.
Freedom is that act of bravery that wrests individual honor from oppression.
It is not free. It is won in blood. And bravery and strife.
It is never inherited. Those who fail to fight for it lose it.
Those who poo-poo it have no need of it.
So be careful to understand it. You either want it and need it or you are a slave to those who care nothing for it.
Freedom. What a strange thing.
11 Jun 04
Originally posted by StarValleyWySVW: "Freedom is that state that is attained through effort in opposition to tyranny."
Freedom is that state that is attained through effort in opposition to tyranny.
Freedom is an ideal that is worth fighting and dying for.
Freedom is attainable only through the effort of heroic action, because the despot will always strive to wrest it from your breast.
Freedom is illusory. It exists only in the mind.
But only in the mind can ...[text shortened]... d need it or you are a slave to those who care nothing for it.
Freedom. What a strange thing.
SVW: "You either want it and need it or you are a slave to those who care nothing for it.
SVW presents freedom as being opposed to slavery.
What's wrong with being enslaved ? What's wrong for instance with being hooked on drugs, substances such as heroine, alcohol and the like ? Isn't that also an instance of not being able to choose what you want, of enslavement ?
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11 Jun 04
Originally posted by Phlabibit
"Need any man be told what is right or wrong"?
Not sure who said that... but now I am starting to wonder!
I am sure you and BBarr share some morals... We all do!
P-
We share more morals than we often realise. We usually do not discuss the morals that we share but rather the morals we do not share.
Tell me why you said "but now I'm starting to wonder!" I don't quite understand what you are referring to.
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11 Jun 04
Originally posted by Dissident Dan
Happiness.
That's reasonable. Yes, happiness.
Lets take the example of somebody who feels unhappy and decides for some reason to start using heroine or alcohol. These substances will make him feel better. He states that he is happier with than without these substances. Would you agree with him on that ?
11 Jun 04
Originally posted by rapalla7Don't get morality confused with ethics.
If it was freedom I could do what I want when I want etc. Morals and ethics hinder freedom in a true sense.
It's true that ethics (the system of governing morality) hinders freedom, as you have to accept the will of the ruling party/force/religion or whatever.
Morality, though is your own personal code of right and wrong.
Therefore morality can't hinder freedom, but it can define it.
Freedom is the ability to follow your own morals.
Or am I talking out of my arse?
11 Jun 04
Originally posted by ivanhoeWell, first off... have you ever heard this quote?
We share more morals than we often realise. We usually do not discuss the morals that we share but rather the morals we do not share.
Tell me why you said "but now I'm starting to wonder!" I don't quite understand what you are referring to.
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What I am wondering now IS if any man really DOES need to be told. We know you are against abortion, and you can probably guess that I am for choice...
Who's right? We both can't be right... or can we?
So either I need to be told it is wrong, or you need to be told the choice is good.
Not sure if I am making myself clear, but there you have it.
P-
11 Jun 04
1 edit
Originally posted by PhlabibitThe problem with the question of abortion is that we cannot ask the one who's life is at stake. Just the same as we cannot ask those who were sentenced to death and executed by the judicial system whether they agree with their fate on this very moment.
Well, first off... have you ever heard this quote?
What I am wondering now IS if any man really DOES need to be told. We know you are against abortion, and you can probably guess that I am for choice...
Who's right? We both can ...[text shortened]... Not sure if I am making myself clear, but there you have it.
P-
We can only ask those who survived the womb whether abortion is morally acceptable and are now alive and escaped that fate.
So Phlabby, would you rather have been killed in the womb or do you prefer the way it really went. That you are alive here now together with all those who could escape that fate one way or the other and who are now playing chess on RHP ?
In this thread, and others, people often mention the rule or wish of not imposing one's morals upon others. But aren't we imposing our morals on others in the most extreme way there is in case of abortion, being removed from the list of the living ... and for what reason ? Just for being there, for being redundant, superfluous, handicapped or simply being in the way or, as was mentioned by someone on this site, as a result of a bet ?
Phlabby: "Who's right? We both can't be right... or can we? "
No, we can't both be right and we cannot ask the ones who's lives were thrown away. What would they have wanted ?
When we look deep inside our hearts, if we still have hearts, I'm sure we will find the correct answer.
11 Jun 04
Originally posted by ivanhoeProbably helps me that I believe in reincarnation... so as hard as it might be for you to believe... had I been terminated, I might be in a far better life right now. Or perhaps a far worse life.... no way to know.
The problem with the question of abortion is that we cannot ask the one who's life is at stake. Just the same as we cannot ask those who were sentenced to death and executed by the judicial system whether they agree with their fate on this very moment.
We can only ask those who survived the womb whether abortion is morally acceptable and are now alive an ...[text shortened]... deep inside our hearts, if we still have hearts, I'm sure we will find the correct answer.
If my mother had some reason to have me terminated, perhaps it would have been a bad life for me if she were FORCED to give birth to me. Perhaps a far better life if I was lucky enough to be adopted by a very stable family.... again, no way to know.
I did make it, and had a great and very stable couple of parents, and a good childhood... not everyone is this fortunate. So that is how I can deal with the 'evil' that is abortion.
Feel free to pick this all apart if you like, I am off to dinner with my Bro-in-law to be... and will be back online later. I was just trying to squeeze out a small answer before I'm out of here for a few hours. Perhaps I should not have tried to answer in haste... but I'll let this thread stand as it has been typed.
Have a good one, bud!
P-
11 Jun 04
Originally posted by Phlabibit
Probably helps me that I believe in reincarnation... so as hard as it might be for you to believe... had I been terminated, I might be in a far better life right now. Or perhaps a far worse life.... no way to know.
If my mother had some reason to have me terminated, perhaps it would have been a bad life for me if she were FORCED to give birth to me. ...[text shortened]... n haste... but I'll let this thread stand as it has been typed.
Have a good one, bud!
P-
I didn't know that aborted children could reïncarnate according to reïncarnation belief ... never too old to learn, I guess.
Have a good one too, Phlabby ....
11 Jun 04
Here's a case of morality vs. freedom: http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/10/computer.terrorism.ap/index.html
Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was cleared of terrorism charges. He used his 'expertise' to create terrorist recruiting web sites. Now there are many who would say that this is a 'hate crime.' But it was also a case of freedom of speech.
11 Jun 04
Originally posted by ivanhoeNo. I would expect that the drugs would have a net negative effect.
Lets take the example of somebody who feels unhappy and decides for some reason to start using heroine or alcohol. These substances will make him feel better. He states that he is happier with than without these substances. Would you agree with him on that ?